dark sun novels: where should i start?

[humble minion]

Were the Denning novels really that bad?

In my opinion, yes. The characterisation was one-note and cartoonish, the character development was ham-fisted, the plotting was ponderous, the prose was adolescent at best, the internal setting integrity and logic was extraordinarily wobbly, and from a gamer's point of view (rather than a reader's), the whole series destroyed some of the major underpinnings of an interesting, compelling, unique game world. There were some imaginative setpieces and concepts (I think Denning would have been a good GM), but these were wasted opportunities.

Does this mean they are good in general, or just the best of the Dark Sun novels? How well did they stay on canon or was there even much canon at the time they were being written?

I think 'best of the Dark Sun novels' depends on what standards you judge by. Alzrius and I obviously differ!

As far as canon goes, strictly speaking, since the novels were one of the first DS products (though the first of the modules fitted in pretty tightly with them - PCs playing in the modules got to watch as the novel characters went through the first couple of novels) they DEFINED canon. Later DS products, both in the novel and the game line, followed their lead, even though their lead invalidated massive chunks of the newly-released campaign setting box.

The Pentad used canon (from the boxed set) as a starting point, but by the time they finished, that canon was pretty much unrecognisable.

At this point in the whole thing, will current canon be that important if they will be renewing it as a 4e setting? Maybe, because they are reprinting the Denning books, they are setting up the foundation for the setting to match what is in his novels?
[just speculation]

It's possible. Given the 4e '3-book' campaign setting model, I wouldn't be surprised at all if DS sees the light of day in some form. Won't be til after Eberron at the very least, and possibly Ravenloft or Dragonlance or a new 4e setting though. I expect it to get a very major reboot if it does, though.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

I didn't even notice this thread when I posted my other one about the series reprint.

Were the Denning novels really that bad?

No, they were actually pretty good. You are bound to hate them, however, if you like Athas in its unchanged state - the status quo described in the first boxed set. They are good tools to learn about the metaplot of the settings, and quite entertaining. I wouldn´t want to DM Dark Sun without rereading them first.
There are lots of setting tidbits you can glean from them. What does it feel like to travel with a halfling that may want to eat you while you sleep? How do Dwarves deal with their focus? How does it feel when a Mindbender takes away your free will?
No great literature, but a good introduction to Athas. My advice for RPG purposes: read the metaplot in the novels, ignore it for your game.

 

[Dire Bare]

i'd like to start reading the dark sun novels. where should i start?

Be prepared for major negativity whenever asking for opinions on gaming related fiction. Not that everyone's opinions aren't valid, but a lot of people unfairly look down their noses at fiction set in game settings. YMMV, of course.

I personally loved the original Prism Pentad and highly recommend them. Some fans of the game setting dislike them because they took the setting as presented in the RPG and then made major changes to it by the end of the novel series. And the RPG and novels came out at pretty much the same time.

The subsequent DarkSun books were good but not great IMO, but then it's been a long time since I've read them. If you want to read them all, start with the Prism Pentad and follow the books in the order you already have them in your original post.

Coincidentally, the Prism Pentad is currently being rereleased by WotC and you can easily find the first two or three in bookstores.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Does this mean they are good in general, or just the best of the Dark Sun novels? How well did they stay on canon or was there even much canon at the time they were being written?

I'm between Alzrius and humble minion in my take. I don't consider them tops in game fiction for the story. They are indispensable for someone who wants to know canon of the Dark Sun setting. The novels defined canon for what was to come after.

At this point in the whole thing, will current canon be that important if they will be renewing it as a 4e setting? Maybe, because they are reprinting the Denning books, they are setting up the foundation for the setting to match what is in his novels?

[just speculation]

Absolutely could be the case. Though I would have loved for them to reprint the books but rewrite the fifth book. I interviewed Troy personally and he confided that he wished he had ended the series differently.

See. After Troy participated in the setting design, he was shuffled off out of the RPG department and into the novels line. Troy had zero involvement with Dark Sun, except his novels, after he was done with the original boxedset. Even though Troy was a setting co-creator, he was kept out of the loop as much as every author was (Ed Greenwood being the lone exception at that time). While Ed, as creator, received complimentary copies of every FR products (so I heard), Troy got nothing from TSR.

Part of the Dark Sun design team's goal was to create a setting where players could overturn a stagnant and oppressive society and make a world anew. The Prism Pentad was begun as a demonstration of just how PCs could do it. The problem was that as Troy was writing his story as part of the novels line now, he had no contact with the RPG guys designing supplements. As Troy finished his final book, he learned that someone in the RPG department had just authored an accessory defining the area the novels would finish up at. It just so happens in Troy's novel the place gets, well, the Atlantis treatment.

So not only did Troy, with no communication with the RPG teams designing supplements, go off and completely negate certain supplements within months of their releases. Troy also went way off the deep end in overturning the popular themes of the setting itself . . . BY DESIGN and FROM THE START!

If the fans were let in on the scope of final outcome before it happened there might have been a different reaction. Maybe. Fans might not have gotten so deeply attached to the setting as presented in the first boxed set. But then again, Troy admitted that he wishes he could have handled the series differently, hadn't wiped out so much of what fans loved. He didn't think his novels would become future canon and would have only been used as inspiration for players and DM's own stories. Boy was he off.

 

[Dire Bare]

My experience with gamer fiction (that is fiction written in the context of being from the game) is normally a step below standard fantasy. Perhaps the authors simply feel constrained writing within the framework of the game? I'm unsure.

Gaming-related fictions gets an unfair rap, IMO. Some gaming fiction is absolutely amazing, some of it is good, some of it is okay, and some of it is drek. Of course, the same is true regarding non-gaming fiction as well.

Crappy non-gaming fiction quickly gets forgotten and disapears to the place where lost socks go. Crappy gaming fiction sticks around because it is a part of a larger collection and setting.

The first round of Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms fiction was pretty darn good, IMO. The original Chronicles for Dragonlance and the Moonshae trilogy for the Realms. Unfortunately, they were quickly followed by books with a mix of quality leaning towards the not-so-great. As TSR and then later WotC matured as fantasy publishers, the books picked up in quality quite a bit.

I feel that the current D&D fiction being released today by WotC is universally pretty awesome and I pick (almost) all of them up. And the best of the current stuff, mostly Realms novels by Kemp, deBie, and others is great reads!!

The only D&D novels I avoid today are the Dragonlance furry fiction books, books where all the main characters are minotaurs, ogres, hobgoblins, etc. Dragonlance as a novel series also has an unfortunate obsession with the past of the setting, and not enough books are set in the current era of Krynn. Although even then, some of the "historical" novels being published today are still pretty good.

A lot of the earlier Realms stuff is pretty hit-and-miss, but current Realms fiction is a treat. I don't care for Greenwood's writing and so avoid his novels, but the rest are gold to me.

The Eberron line is flat-out made of pure awesome, I loved every book and eagerly await each next one. Good stuff.

Someday I'd love to start a website that tracks all the D&D novels and stories released over the years to help guide people through the novel series, as there are hundreds of 'em. Set it up to allow for reader's reviews too. But, first I have to learn how to put together a website, and then I have to find the free time . . .

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Someday I'd love to start a website that tracks all the D&D novels and stories released over the years to help guide people through the novel series, as there are hundreds of 'em. Set it up to allow for reader's reviews too. But, first I have to learn how to put together a website, and then I have to find the free time . . .

Phenomenal idea!

 

[Korgoth]

i'd like to start reading the dark sun novels. where should i start?

Depends on how much you like the Dark Sun of the first boxed set. Because the Prism Pentad was bascially a thermonuclear enema for that setting.

So if you think that setting is cool you might want to treasure and preserve your ignorance.

You know it's going to be bad when the first adventure tie-in has the PCs standing around while the NPCs casually dispose of the big bad guy.

 

[Dragonblade]

Every product such as the original the boxed set that covers Dark Sun before the events of the Prism Pentad blow up the setting is good. Every other product is crap. The Revised Campaign Setting box set is really atrocious. Talk about nerfing everything that made the setting cool.

The Prism Pentad novels are definitive simply because Troy Denning helped create Dark Sun and he really captured the feel. But they are really bad in that they pretty much blow up the setting and pave the way for all the atrocious Revised Dark Sun products.

Still, I recommend at least reading the Prism Pentad and then read Tribe of One. I disliked all the Chronicles of Athas books, although one of them is actually a continuation of Tribe of One. Read that one and skip the rest. I disliked the others.

And if you ever run a Dark Sun game, I recommend setting it after the first novel of Prism Pentad but then ignore everything that happens in any novel after that. Use the Prism Pentad simply as inspiration for how a Dark Sun game might go, but don't follow it as canon.

Product wise, if you play it using 2e rules, then use the original box set, and all the books that came out prior to the release of the Revised box set. Avoid anything using the revised box set like the plague. For example, Dune Trader, Earth Air Fire Water, Dragon Kings, etc. are all good products. Revised Box Set, Mind Lords of the Last Sea, etc. are crap. Basically, anything with Brom cover art is good, anything without Brom cover art is bad.

 

[Spatula]

The first Prism Pentad book is pretty decent for D&D fiction (so however you feel about lowend genre fiction applies here). The second book is meh. The third, fourth, and fifth books are utter crap.

I didn't bother with any Dark Sun novels after that, so I can't comment on the others.

 

[Jhaelen]

I'm between Alzrius and humble minion in my take. I don't consider them tops in game fiction for the story. They are indispensable for someone who wants to know canon of the Dark Sun setting.

That's my take, as well.

Back when I DMed my Dark Sun campaign I've read all of the novels and (most) were extremely important to be able to properly portrait the setting - especially Prism Pentad. If I'd only bought them for a good read, I'd probably have been disappointed and stopped reading after the third novel or so.