Dark Sun - Player's Guide rendered obsolete

[fuzzlewump]

Yes, but, you have to go through the long, grueling process of selecting, reskinning, or creating appropriate monsters in 4E. And the difficult task of converting DC's and whatnot.

More seriously, I'm glad that Eberron wasn't changed because I'm using a 3E supplement for it in my game (Sharn: City of Towers) and if 4E timeline advanced to completely change Sharn I would be a sad man, unless they wrote another Sharn book for the new times.

 

[Dire Bare]

I'm running 4e FR pre-spellplague and it is pretty easy, so WotC didn't really destroy anything, they just added another period to play in. I'm running Thunderspire in the Thunder Peaks.

I'm sorry, but this can't be true. Didn't you get the memo that WotC has completely destroyed the ability of Realms fans to enjoy the setting? I'm afraid you're going to have to jump your campaign forward to the current era and not have any fun.

 

[SSquirrel]

They basically destroyed my setting to make it all 'fit'. 4E FR, to me, might as well just plain not be FR. It's PoL with different names and FR for people who didn't like FR(Who still don't like it, because it says FR on it). IMO of course but I'm not even remotely alone on this.

Now DS, a campaign setting I actively hate, is getting a decent treatment that isn't going to utterly destroy everything about it its fans like.

Well DS got ruined slowly by each successive product they released after the original box set. Up until the Revised boxed set I was with them, then I was like WTH!?

The only change to Eberron originally (timewise) was going to be a 2 year advancement, but there was a large outcry. I don't see a big deal about 2 years personally. Then again, I'm an FR fan who liked the FR changes b/c the setting felt almost claustrophobically full and with so many detailed high level good guys, how could the players have room to really do much. "X Y and Z are all busy this week" only works for so long.

I'm sure there are people running games set in the past FR when Myth Drannor or the Netherese were around, so the new setting serves a purpose for that. The new Realms is more open to new DMs by emphasizing the here and now. If they want the backstory there are plenty of products from prior editions and the Grand History of the Realms.

I believe Spelljammer was always pointed at as one of the unprofitable lines, so I doubt we will be seeing it next year, but if they did there's no guarantee what model they would follow. There are no character changes needed and making a book full of space going ships would be a very limited market. I would expect to see Spelljammer as a one off single book with everything, including ships. Extra material and more ships would come from Dragon.

 

[Dire Bare]

Yeah, I am kinda irked about it. Please allow me to elaborate.

You see, when someone abandons a design concept, even when it's a poor design concept and it's the right thing to do in every way, that makes me think the original concept wasn't considered very carefully. The process of content design and implementation is called into question, even if unconsciously.

So, ah, you're saying that when somebody changes something up, that means that their prior efforts were wrong and ill-considered?

Sigh. No. When you create something, such as a campaign setting or some other piece of art, changing it later doesn't mean you screwed up the first time. It doesn't mean you didn't put serious thought into your earlier efforts.

It just means you feel its time for a change. Maybe there are some elements of your earlier work, that in retrospect and 20/20 hindsight, you feel could be improved. Maybe you have learned some design lessons in the intervening time. Maybe you simply had some cool new ideas you'd like to implement. Perhaps you just want to move forward and uncover new territory.

The new campaign "model" we will be seeing with Dark Sun later this year might be the shape of things to come in official campaign settings. Or it might be a one-time model unique to the Dark Sun release. Either way, it doesn't make the model used by the Realms and Eberron poor or ill-considered at all.

And if the 2011 or 2012 campaign release uses yet another "model" when released, that won't invalidate the Dark Sun release in any way.

 

[Dire Bare]

...Yeah, I'm pretty pissed. Great for you guys, but why oh why the hell couldn't they have gotten a clue earlier, before they ruined my setting? :<

You do realize that the Realms isn't "your" setting, right? If you don't care for the changes, that's fine, you're in good company. But WotC didn't "screw" with the setting or "destroy" it in any way shape or form. They simply made changes that some fans dislike and some fans dig.

Get over it and just play what you like. Just like Vagabundo, he's got the right idea!

And to be angry that WotC is "correctly" handling a setting you dislike and how so unfair it all is . . . . sheesh! I'm not even sure how to respond to that and not have Eric's grandma come after me . . .

 

[Nai_Calus]

You do realize that the Realms isn't "your" setting, right? If you don't care for the changes, that's fine, you're in good company. But WotC didn't "screw" with the setting or "destroy" it in any way shape or form. They simply made changes that some fans dislike and some fans dig.

Get over it and just play what you like. Just like Vagabundo, he's got the right idea!

And to be angry that WotC is "correctly" handling a setting you dislike and how so unfair it all is . . . . sheesh! I'm not even sure how to respond to that and not have Eric's grandma come after me . . .

I like that you try to interpret my phrasing as claiming ownership of the setting. No, it's my setting in that it's the one I like. This should be obvious, but hey, getting on a high horse is fun. And to me, yes, they destroyed pretty much everything I like. Thus, they destroyed the setting, IMO. As I've already noted is IMO in my previous post.

I'd love to get over it and just play what I like, but two conditions apply to me that prevent that: One, I don't DM. I did it once for a 3.5 game and a combination of the system and my players put me off of DMing pretty much forever. And I can't even find a 4E FR game, let alone a 4E game using a previous edition's FR to join. Two, I'm primarily a novel fan. Setting nuke + 100 year time jump == Nothing further being written about the old things I liked. So that's basically over and dead for me.

Also lol. I'm not angry that they're doing it right. I'm angry that they didn't do it right SOONER. Every setting so far has been a further step in the right direction, but they did the one I go for first and completely botched it. That's what I'm angry about. That they didn't figure out things sooner, in time for the setting I actually like. (The other setting I like has about 0 chance of getting done so unless they do a new setting which is absolutely awesome, FR was the one setting during 4e I would have cared about. And yeah, not nuking everything would have kept the novels where they were so I could have continued to enjoy that even in the absence of a game to join. I'm a bitter little thing about 4E FR.)

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Yeah that's pretty much exactly it for me as well.

They basically destroyed my setting to make it all 'fit'. 4E FR, to me, might as well just plain not be FR. It's PoL with different names and FR for people who didn't like FR(Who still don't like it, because it says FR on it). IMO of course but I'm not even remotely alone on this.

Now DS, a campaign setting I actively hate, is getting a decent treatment that isn't going to utterly destroy everything about it its fans like.

...Yeah, I'm pretty pissed. Great for you guys, but why oh why the hell couldn't they have gotten a clue earlier, before they ruined my setting? :<

You know that a lot of gamers stopped at the Grey Box, yes? And 99,9% of them don´t come into Dark Sun threads and say stuff like "how could TSR destroy, the sandboxey nature of my Campaign Setting by adding gobs of lore!!1!"
I mean, perhaps they did back then. But what´s the point?

And for the record, i love FR, love the new FRCS, love that finally somebody had some balls to let Faerun experience change instead of creating a new FRCS that retreads the past again and again. Different time periods to play in are awesome - i loved Arcane Age, and jumping 100 years was just perfect for me.
That some FR fans feel the need to say that the current timeline is for people who "hated the realms" is just... you know... rude. Plain and simple

FR needed new vistas to explore, DS needs a "condensed edition for the here´n´now."

Hmm, smells off-topic. Sorry.

 

[vagabundo]

I like that you try to interpret my phrasing as claiming ownership of the setting. No, it's my setting in that it's the one I like. This should be obvious, but hey, getting on a high horse is fun. And to me, yes, they destroyed pretty much everything I like. Thus, they destroyed the setting, IMO. As I've already noted is IMO in my previous post.

I'd love to get over it and just play what I like, but two conditions apply to me that prevent that: One, I don't DM. I did it once for a 3.5 game and a combination of the system and my players put me off of DMing pretty much forever. And I can't even find a 4E FR game, let alone a 4E game using a previous edition's FR to join. Two, I'm primarily a novel fan. Setting nuke + 100 year time jump == Nothing further being written about the old things I liked. So that's basically over and dead for me.

Also lol. I'm not angry that they're doing it right. I'm angry that they didn't do it right SOONER. Every setting so far has been a further step in the right direction, but they did the one I go for first and completely botched it. That's what I'm angry about. That they didn't figure out things sooner, in time for the setting I actually like. (The other setting I like has about 0 chance of getting done so unless they do a new setting which is absolutely awesome, FR was the one setting during 4e I would have cared about. And yeah, not nuking everything would have kept the novels where they were so I could have continued to enjoy that even in the absence of a game to join. I'm a bitter little thing about 4E FR.)

I actually think you need to claim FR as your own and run a 4e game, get back on the DM horse. WotC has freed you from the tyranny of their canon, you have a hundred blank years to play around with. You can now do whatever you like to the setting, mine the post spell plague for ideas and run with whatever you like.

For a newish DM 4e is a blessing; it is quiet easy to run games out of the box. And the DMG's are an excellent resource on how to DM a good game.

Set the game in the time period you like. It is a shame that you dont like the newer novels, but there is a tonne of places to explore in the previous editions of the Realms.

I'm running with this Thunderspire setting until it is all tapped out, maybe they will go into the underdark after it - I have the Underdark supplement; most excellent - or they might end up in Sigil, one of those missing Mages has a residence there. My next realms campaign will be WotBS set in Thay, I've never set an adventure there and I have the Unapproachable East supplement on it's way to me.

The 3e setting material is a perfect match with the standard 4e core rules set and there is enough material there to game for the rest of your natural life.

EDIT: I think they did the right think for FR, it was gutsy and I applaud it. But I think they could still support pre-spellplague with some novels and supplements and they would sell, but I believe they had some trouble getting new writers in to do that, some thing about the weight of FR canon. Eberron was a good decision and so was Dark sun, each was appropriate.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

SSquirrel
speaking of my beloved Spelljammer...this is what I'm working on currently
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/rhino/2010/dragonfly_18.jpg

 

[SSquirrel]

Silver, that's looking pretty nice so far. Keep it up