Dark Sun Spellcasting

[Raduin711]

(Cross-Posted to conversions, posted here because of lack of response...)

Ok, what do you guys think...

This is a system I plan on using for a Dark Sun game. Let me know how balanced you think this is, any issues you have with it...

Oh, and yes, I know about http://www.athas.org. I'm not crazy about their system, so I'm making my own.

It looks complex, but it actually isnt.

-=-About Athasian Magic-=-

Athasian spellcasters require life energy to power their spells, and they get that energy from athas and its plant life.

There are two kinds of spellcasters on Athas.

Preservers: Wizards who use a minimal amount of life force to power their spells, even going so far as to replace it. When they do harm at all, it is like a hummingbird drinking the nectar of a flower.

Defilers: Wizards who seek power at the expense of the fragile athasian environment. They power their spells with cruel abandon. Wizards who chose this path, or even tempt it, often become addicted to the practice.

-=- Spellcasting -=-

At first level, a Wizard chooses whether he is a preserver or a defiler. This affects how he casts spells. There are 3 ways to gather energy for a spell. Gathering energy is a free action that is assumed to take place during the casting of the spell.

Spell types

Standard
Available to: Preservers
A standard spell is a preserved spell. A standard spell can be cast in any environment that has any kind of life at all, at no bonus or penalty.

Obfuscated
Available to: Preservers
An obfuscated spell is a preserved spell that uses less energy than normal. This allows a spellcaster to hide his spellcasting from observers. To do so, he makes an opposed obfuscate* skill check against any spot (if the spell contains any somatic, material, or focus components) and/or listen (if the spell has a verbal component). An obfuscated spell is cast at -1 caster level.

*obfuscate is a new dex-based skill that is on the Wizard skill list. Its only use is in hiding spellcasting attempts.

Defiled
Available to: Defilers and Preservers
A defiled spell harms the environment, making the soil useless, and annihilating any living plants in a matter of seconds, leaving behind nothing but ash. Spells cast in this way are more powerful than standard spells, and can do more damage, have longer ranges, durations, etc. than other spells.

A defiled spell can increase the effectiveness of its level-dependent attributes dependent on the level of the caster independently.

1-4 +1
5-8 +2
9-12 +3
13-16 +4
17-20 +5

For example, Galth, a 6th level Wizard wants to defile a Magic Missile spell. Because he is 6th level, he gets to add 2 levels to one of the level-dependent attributes of the spell. He decides to raise the damage to 7th level, so he gets 4 missiles instead of his usual 3. because spending both of his level bonuses on damage is useless, he instead raises the range of the spell by 1 level as well, bringing it up to 170 feet instead of 160. Or he could chose not to spend any of these bonus levels at all.

Defiling a spell creates a dark circle of ash, centered on the defiler, equal to 5' times the level of the spell (minimum 5'). If the defiler is standing in a spot already defiled, increase the radius of the defiled area by half rounded down to the nearest 5'. (minimum 5') This circle of ash in and of itself has no effect on combat, though it could be used to destroy plant obstructions and the like.

If a preserver defiles, he risks permanently becoming a defiler. A preserver must roll a will save DC 10+level of spell+number of times previously defiled. A failure means that he becomes a defiler permanently. A preserver can opt to fail this roll if he desires.


-=- Terrain Modifiers -=-

Normal
Normal terrain offers no real bonuses or penalties.
Examples: Scrub Plains, Stony Barrens, Rocky Badlands, Boulder Fields, Bare Mountains, Sandy Wastes, Salt Flats

Lush
Lush terrain offers more energy than normal to a Wizard. However, only a defiler can get benefit from the abundance. Any defiled spells are cast at +1 caster level.
Examples: Forests, Large Gardens, Parks, Verdant Belts, Grasslands, Oases.

Dead
Dead terrain is utterly barren of life. Gathering energy for spells is impossible here, as there is nothing to gather.
Examples: Obsidian Plain

-=- Pre-Gathering energy -=-

Most energy is gathered at the time of the casting of the spell. However, there are situations where a spellcaster may want to carry energy with him. Doing this is a full round action per spell charge carried.

A Defiler can carry with him the energy to cast a number of spells equal to half of his level.

A Preserver can carry with him the energy to cast a number of spells equal to his level.

-=- Other changes to the wizard Class -=-

Normally, whenever a wizard gains a level, he can add two spells to his spellbook. Unfortunately, because of the illegal nature of spellcasting, and the lack of avenues of proper education, an athasian wizard only gets one.

-=- Sorcerers? Bards? -=-

The basic assumption of these classes is that their magic is somehow fueled from an inner source, or that magic somehow comes naturally for them. This simply does not fit in with how magic is done on Athas. Sorcerers do not exist, and Bards do not have spellcasting ability. (this has been replaced with other abilities.)

 

[Raduin711]

*Bump*

Any thoughts?

 

[moritheil]

You need more actual, hard numbers for the mechanics of defoliation and depletion of resources.

Sorcerers could easily be explained by saying that while the energy they use in controlling magic comes from within, the energy that powers the spell still comes from life energy.

Bards . . . I have a hard time believing that the average Athasian really has the luxury of something like music. Bards should be rare.

 

[Raduin711]

5 feet times the level of the spell works for me. everything, trees, shrubs, grass; turns to ash.

One thing I forgot to include was that in Lush terrain, the circle of ash is halved. I'm also thinking that a feat could be taken to "reach" your defiling radius out, say within Medium range, and defile places other than under your feet.

about sorcerers... Still not crazy about that. Messes a little bit with the history of how Rajaat discovered magic and screwed the world with it. Chew on this, too... one signature piece of the setting was that everyone had a little psionic potential. The sorcerer kind of steps on psionics' toes a little bit. If you have innate talent for something in DS, it's supposed to be psionics.

I guess the only reason i see to include the sorcerer is for it's own sake, and it just has too many thematical issues when it comes to Dark Sun. But that's just my opinion.

And bards actually existed in the old Dark Sun setting believe it or not. They didn't fit the wandering minstrel/storyteller archetype though. Basically they were entertainer-assassins that nobles would send to each other. It was considered impolite to turn away a bard *Ahem* I mean, entertainer... ("you think I, Claudius of Theracles, would stoop to sending a BARD? You insult my honor, sir...") and would often be the focus of complex webs of intrigue. They didn't cast spells. They used poison instead.

 

[lgburton]

i would check out the official conversion to dark sun at http://www.athas.org before actually running this. yes, they have changed the system around so that perservers and defilers are balanced with eachother. a lot of people complain about that, but in terms of game mechanics it does make sense.

just my 2cp, though

(Cross-Posted to conversions, posted here because of lack of response...)

Ok, what do you guys think...

This is a system I plan on using for a Dark Sun game. Let me know how balanced you think this is, any issues you have with it...

Oh, and yes, I know about http://www.athas.org. I'm not crazy about their system, so I'm making my own.

It looks complex, but it actually isnt.

-=-About Athasian Magic-=-

Athasian spellcasters require life energy to power their spells, and they get that energy from athas and its plant life.

There are two kinds of spellcasters on Athas.

Preservers: Wizards who use a minimal amount of life force to power their spells, even going so far as to replace it. When they do harm at all, it is like a hummingbird drinking the nectar of a flower.

Defilers: Wizards who seek power at the expense of the fragile athasian environment. They power their spells with cruel abandon. Wizards who chose this path, or even tempt it, often become addicted to the practice.

-=- Spellcasting -=-

At first level, a Wizard chooses whether he is a preserver or a defiler. This affects how he casts spells. There are 3 ways to gather energy for a spell. Gathering energy is a free action that is assumed to take place during the casting of the spell.

Spell types

Standard
Available to: Preservers
A standard spell is a preserved spell. A standard spell can be cast in any environment that has any kind of life at all, at no bonus or penalty.

Obfuscated
Available to: Preservers
An obfuscated spell is a preserved spell that uses less energy than normal. This allows a spellcaster to hide his spellcasting from observers. To do so, he makes an opposed obfuscate* skill check against any spot (if the spell contains any somatic, material, or focus components) and/or listen (if the spell has a verbal component). An obfuscated spell is cast at -1 caster level.

*obfuscate is a new dex-based skill that is on the Wizard skill list. Its only use is in hiding spellcasting attempts.

Defiled
Available to: Defilers and Preservers
A defiled spell harms the environment, making the soil useless, and annihilating any living plants in a matter of seconds, leaving behind nothing but ash. Spells cast in this way are more powerful than standard spells, and can do more damage, have longer ranges, durations, etc. than other spells.

A defiled spell can increase the effectiveness of its level-dependent attributes dependent on the level of the caster independently.

1-4 +1
5-8 +2
9-12 +3
13-16 +4
17-20 +5

For example, Galth, a 6th level Wizard wants to defile a Magic Missile spell. Because he is 6th level, he gets to add 2 levels to one of the level-dependent attributes of the spell. He decides to raise the damage to 7th level, so he gets 4 missiles instead of his usual 3. because spending both of his level bonuses on damage is useless, he instead raises the range of the spell by 1 level as well, bringing it up to 170 feet instead of 160. Or he could chose not to spend any of these bonus levels at all.

Defiling a spell creates a dark circle of ash, centered on the defiler, equal to 5' times the level of the spell (minimum 5'). If the defiler is standing in a spot already defiled, increase the radius of the defiled area by half rounded down to the nearest 5'. (minimum 5') This circle of ash in and of itself has no effect on combat, though it could be used to destroy plant obstructions and the like.

If a preserver defiles, he risks permanently becoming a defiler. A preserver must roll a will save DC 10+level of spell+number of times previously defiled. A failure means that he becomes a defiler permanently. A preserver can opt to fail this roll if he desires.


-=- Terrain Modifiers -=-

Normal
Normal terrain offers no real bonuses or penalties.
Examples: Scrub Plains, Stony Barrens, Rocky Badlands, Boulder Fields, Bare Mountains, Sandy Wastes, Salt Flats

Lush
Lush terrain offers more energy than normal to a Wizard. However, only a defiler can get benefit from the abundance. Any defiled spells are cast at +1 caster level.
Examples: Forests, Large Gardens, Parks, Verdant Belts, Grasslands, Oases.

Dead
Dead terrain is utterly barren of life. Gathering energy for spells is impossible here, as there is nothing to gather.
Examples: Obsidian Plain

-=- Pre-Gathering energy -=-

Most energy is gathered at the time of the casting of the spell. However, there are situations where a spellcaster may want to carry energy with him. Doing this is a full round action per spell charge carried.

A Defiler can carry with him the energy to cast a number of spells equal to half of his level.

A Preserver can carry with him the energy to cast a number of spells equal to his level.

-=- Other changes to the wizard Class -=-

Normally, whenever a wizard gains a level, he can add two spells to his spellbook. Unfortunately, because of the illegal nature of spellcasting, and the lack of avenues of proper education, an athasian wizard only gets one.

-=- Sorcerers? Bards? -=-

The basic assumption of these classes is that their magic is somehow fueled from an inner source, or that magic somehow comes naturally for them. This simply does not fit in with how magic is done on Athas. Sorcerers do not exist, and Bards do not have spellcasting ability. (this has been replaced with other abilities.)

 

[Raduin711]

Like I said originally, I'm not crazy about athas.org's take on preserving/defiling. I'm a little disheartened by the fact that it seems like every couple weeks someone comes up with a better way of doing it, and athas.org doesn't take the hint that many of their fans are giving it the thumbs-down.

anyway.

I think my system isn't that out of balance. While I gave defilers something new to beef up their spells, I gave preservers something to make up for it; the ability to hide their spells. Something not to be underestimated when you are casting spells like charm person or hypnotic pattern.

It makes them both a little more powerful than the standard D&D wizard, so I made up for it, at least partially, by removing one of their free spells upon gaining a level; making aligning with the veiled alliance and the sorcerer kings that much more important to athasian wizards.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I'm a little disheartened by the fact that it seems like every couple weeks someone comes up with a better way of doing it, and athas.org doesn't take the hint that many of their fans are giving it the thumbs-down.

Maybe it is because everyone and their uncle can't be perfectly pleased. You will always get tweekers, it doesn't mean that something "sucks". There is at least one idea for how defiling should be for each Dark Sun fan out there.

Better is subjective.

Some people want the AD&D 2e system back, it's better for some.
Some people want it as simple as possible, that's better for some
Some people want defiling/preserving a continuum for a single class, that's better for others.
Some people want two separate classes, defiler and preserver, that's better for others.
Some people want tables to look up on. Those work better for some.
Some people want formulas, and those are better for others.
Some people want the Paths as feats, because that works better for others.
Some people don't want the Paths at all, and that's better for others.
Some people can't have things complex enough, and the more options the better.

 

[Raduin711]

Maybe it is because everyone and their uncle can't be perfectly pleased. You will always get tweekers, it doesn't mean that something "sucks". There is at least one idea for how defiling should be for each Dark Sun fan out there.

Better is subjective.

Some people want the AD&D 2e system back, it's better for some.
Some people want it as simple as possible, that's better for some
Some people want defiling/preserving a continuum for a single class, that's better for others.
Some people want two separate classes, defiler and preserver, that's better for others.
Some people want tables to look up on. Those work better for some.
Some people want formulas, and those are better for others.
Some people want the Paths as feats, because that works better for others.
Some people don't want the Paths at all, and that's better for others.
Some people can't have things complex enough, and the more options the better.

Yay! My very own troll.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Troll? Just because I'm not falling down at your feat with praise doesn't mean there's trolling going on.

What did I type that was wrong, btw?

See, I used to work with Athas.org back in 2001-2002. Haven't had anything to do with them since. But I've seen people express disgruntlement over some nit in the Athas.org offering, and then offer their idea, and inevitably there were fewer people that liked the alternates for some reason or another.

The current Athas.org offering is vastly different than some proposals they put out a few years ago. There was a specific design goal Athas.org went with above all. Simplicity without an impact flavor. They are fully aware that some people want more flavor in their defiling rules. It shouldn't be difficult to add it, but it is far easier for a adept fan to add to something than it is for a novice to strip it down. Learning curve and all that.

My own personal system is more complex than Athas.org's offering. But then I have so many changes that my Dark Sun stuff is so far from D&D that it is better called "Dark Sun D20".

But being "disheartened" because Athas.org has offered a system that is friendly to newcomers, yet still attempts to keep the flavor of the setting is, well, . . . . disheartening.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Review..and suggestion

Here are my two cents:

Ditch 'Obfusticate' in favor of the Bluff/Sense Motive rules already in effect. Use Slight of Hand for hiding spell components.

Second, your balance mechanisms are all role-playing based. The Defiler gets a mechanical advantages while the Preserver gets none. If the DM does not apply the roleplaying penalties, there is nothing to lose from being a Defiler.

Third, there is no 'addiction' to defiling, only power-game capability.

I have never played Dark Sun, and have not even visited Athas.org... but I have looked at the Defiler/Preserver as I am always interested in different ways of presenting story lines.

What I would suggest is to use a point based spell system {The Elements of Magic [TEOM] comes to mind} and have Defilers and Preservers use the same class for the build. The difference comes with interaction of special terrain attributes which are assigned to individual squares on a battlemap.

=======================
The 4 quality levels of terrain are: Dead, Normal, Lush, and Verdant.
Key note: Dead terrain does not support any type of magic. At least one square of a living terrain type must be within the casters range for spellcasting to occur.
In the combat environment, each of these terrain types can be present, scattered about the battlefield. This presents interesting tactical issues and the placement of terrain types should be considered by the DM as part of the encounter difficulty.
As a side note, lack of large plantlife does not mean the terrain is 'dead'. Fertile soil in the walls of a cavern can count as 'normal' terrain. Also, the terrain quality is readily identified by spellcasters by 'feel' within a distance of 5' per caster level and by sight. Altho some sneaky spellcaster may create a spell that hides the true nature of the terrain.

Characters has a 'Defilement' stat, that starts at zero. Add one to this stat for each defiled spell cast by the character.

To cast a Preserver spell, you must make a Spellcraft check against a DC 0 . The point cost of the spell {In TEOM this is usually 2 points per 'level' of the spell} and your Defilement are counted as penalties. The result of the check indicates how many feet out you can draw your magic from. You gain bonus spell points that can be spent on the spell based on the terrain quality within range as follows:
Normal +1
Lush +2
Verdant +3
Failure indicates that you cast a Defiled version of the spell. You may intentionally fail this check.

To cast a Defiled spell, no check is required. You draw your mana from a distance of 1 square per level of the spell being cast. You gain bonus spell points that must be spent on the spell as follows:
Levels 1 through 4: +1
Levels 5 through 9: +2
Levels 10 through 14: +3
etc..

One terrain square for each bonus spell point within your range is reduced in quality by one level. {the flavor of the entire area wilting and turning into ash is viable, but the tactical challange is maintained by the limited destruction of the battlefield. Describe the entire area being wilted and ashen.}
If there are not enough living terrain in the area, the caster may still cast the spell, but at a terrible price. The caster loses 1 point of Charisma for each bonus spell point not used in destroying a square of terrain. Points lost in this manner cannot be recovered.
{depending on your campaign, you may substitute a different 'price'. Perhaps 1D6 lethal damage.. . something painful which makes the Defiler seek terrain to destroy}

A Mage can gather energy from local terrain and 'carry' the charge. Gathering the energy is a full round action in which you can gather up to your caster level in spell points. You can gather up to your caster level * CHR bonus. When carrying a charge, Preservers seem to be full of life, 'glowing' in a way similar to the 'glow' of an expectant mother. Defilers seem to be on the verge of death, much as an decrepid elder standing of deaths door. Apply a 2 point circumstance modifier to NPC reaction/diplomancy/etc checks.
==================================

This system contains a number of interesting aspects, the primary one is the tactical considerations. Visiting a noble, you will find that the Prince is sitting at state with symbols of power and wealth at his side.. potted plants. The supplicant will be standing in the middle of a large open area, with bare stone being the closest companion.
In open ground encounters, manuevering for the advantagous terrain is important. More so for the Defiler as the terrain is destroyed through its use.

Defilers are more powerfull and deadly. They can force their enemies into positions where there is no magic available by destroying the ground at thier enemies feet. Thier magic is more dependable, but they too can be forced into areas where they are denied magic.

But Preservers can maintain thier position and continue casting, as long as they can protect the nature at thier feet. But, they have to stay close to living terrain, generally anything over 10' away risks fouling the spell.


Of course, this system increases the DM workload. Even a balanced spell point system can be hazardous to the unprepared. Planning out terrain quality on the battlefield will also take some time and forethought. A lack of living terrain against a high level Defiler can quickly result in the PC Mage not having magic within reach.
It also means an additional dice roll for spellcasters, as well as a requirement to be much more involved in tactical placement than the usual 'hide in the rear with the gear'.