DC & CR for crossing unstable scree slope

[pressedcat]

Hi. Planning my first game as a DM, and needed some help.

I'll be starting my adventure with the 1st lvl pcs escorting a pack-mule train through mountainous passes when they come across a recent avalanche/rockslide across a trail. There'll be a shear drop on one side of the trail 15-20ft wide, and a 20ft climb on the other side with no advantage once you get up there, so basically the only alternatives will be crossing the very unstable scree slope or backtracking to another pass (the second being the preferred option for my game plans).

The scree slope was going to be about 30ft wide, with a balance DC of approx 25 (worked from DC of moving across sloped roof of 15; +5 severely obstructed; +5 severely slippery). Failure by 1-4 would just mean no move, 5-9 loose balance and possibly reflex save or slip d4x5ft down slope, and failure by ten or more start off a secondary slide (dealing damage to be decided) and slip down slope as before.

I could really do with some feedback on this, especially the balance DC, the reflex dc, how much damage the secondary fall should deal (thinking a damage of d6 so no pc deaths from unlucky roll), and what challenge rating you think this sounds like.

I realise this is probably way beyond what a 1st level party could be expected to manage, but barring very good rolls, that was the intent, and since the campaign is based in a mountainous region, there may be more obstructed paths in the future.

Also, thinking that a dc 15-18 spot/survival check might allow the party to spot a slightly more stable route to give them a +2 bonus on their balance checks.

 

[Slobber Monster]

I think a Balance DC of 25 is way too high for carefully crossing a scree slope. Note that the table for base Balance DC's has this note:

# Only if running or charging. Failure by 4 or less means the character can’t run or charge, but may otherwise act normally.

So a DC of 25 is only appropriate for someone behaving recklessly.

In my opinion Balance isn't even the right skill to apply for this obstacle. Someone taking time and care to cross a slope while making use of most of their limbs is using the Climb skill. The base DC would be 0 ("A slope too steep to walk up") +5 ("Surface is slippery") = 5. So anyone who is not a horrible climber, hurried or under attack and has the sense to keep their hands free to brace themselves can cross the slope automatically by taking 10. I have walked on scree in real life and that seems about right.

If you want to make this an exciting obstacle then I think it makes more sense to keep the climb DC low and add in another factor to put pressure on the PC's. Make a plot reason for them to want to cross it quickly (pursuit, flight) or combine it with an enemy (a goblin throwing javelins or some harassing ravens means they can no longer take 10 on climb checks: PC's with no climb modifier will have a 25% chance to fail any move action).

 

[pressedcat]

Thanks for your feedback. I'll go into a little more detail on my reasoning when i tried to work out the dc.

I went for balance over climb because this is more of a finesse action than one requiring brute force. Its about carefully placing your weight with no sudden moves which would start the whole slope moving.

Also, this isn't a stable scree slope that has settled, this is very unstable rubble that could start to slide at any time, the type of ground you'd have to be really desperate, extremely skilled or just plain stupid in order to attempt, ie a formidable challenge.
As i said, this isn't really an obstacle i'm expecting the 1st level pc's to be able to cross, but i figured i'd give them an outside chance to get across if they really put their heads together and did some spectacular improvisation.

I figured about the best odds a 1st level player could get from the rules for the balance check are +4(dex), +4(balance),+2 (synergy from tumble). That takes it down to a dc 15 check. Throw into the equation spells such as reduce person and guidance, and its down to dc13. Other spells that could help are jump or animate rope.

Suddenly its not out of the realms of probability for one of the pc's to make it across and rig up a rope to aid the crossing of the others, though the probability of having all of these skills/spells available is fairly small.

More opinions would be greatfully received, since i'm still struggling to work out the effective challenge rating of this obstacle, as well as save dcs. Also, how many balance checks should it take to get all the way across. I think quarter of the normal movement rate sounds reasonable (1/2 because balancing, halved again because of instability and uneveness of ground). So for a medium creature that would be four checks to cross 30ft. Is my reasoning right, or should it be 2 checks?

 

[Corsair]

Sounds to me that you're just trying to justify making an impassable obstacle to make the players go the way you want them to.

But then again, that is just how it sounds.

 

[green slime]

Sounds to me that you're just trying to justify making an impassable obstacle to make the players go the way you want them to.

But then again, that is just how it sounds.

No, not impassable. Just very, very difficult. Players still get to choose.

And I agree that walking along a scree slope should use Balance. The only problem is, 1st level characters cannot have a +2 synergy bonus from Tumble.

I think the DC should be set slightly lower; 20: Base 10, +3 for moderately obstructed, +3 for moderately slippery, +4 for Severely Sloped or Angled. I see severely slippery as something like wet algae on a rock kind of slippery. Likewise severely obstructed is like stones or boulders making it difficult to put your foot down on a level surface. I think the slope is what is the real cause of danger.

Ultimately, I'd also let a PC try to traverse the slope with a Climb check of the same DC (Base 15: Adequate hand holds and footholds, +3 Slippery, +2 Scree Circumstance difficulty.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Instead of a Reflex save for catching yourself while falling on a slope, it is a Climb check at 10 + the Slope's Climb DC. I would make it a Climb check (maybe impose a DC 5 Balance check at the mid point of the climb) DC 10 + 5 (Slippery). For 30 ft. and a normal medium character that would be 5 checks: two Climb DC 15, one Balance DC 5, and two Climb DC 15 and 4 rounds.

Using any rope with a grapple should lower the DC by 5. Using a silk rope would give +2 circumstance to Climb checks (assuming an adequately set grapple), halflings would get a +2 Racial bonus to Climb checks (but the reduced speed would then require 6 Climb checks), Atheletic feat gives +2 Climb checks, Lizard familiar gives +3 Climb checks, Climber's Kit gives a +2 circumstance bonus to Climb checks (probably doesn't stack with silk rope). Don't expect any more than one of these bonuses to apply to any one character. It can happen, but it is unlikely.

So, catching yourself on a failed (by 5 or more) Climb check would be Climb check DC 25 or 20 if also using a rope. I would allow such a check every 5 feet on the slope. I would make the damage similar to normal falling damage (1d3/5 ft. or 1d6/10 ft. if the fall is that far) except change it to nonlethal damage rather than lethal damage. If they go over the edge; that would be lethal.

I would set the CR of this hazard at 2 or 3.

My big question is: why would the players climb such a thing if they have no way to get the mules across except by pulling them up?

Ciao
Dave

 

[Corsair]

QUOTE=green slime]No, not impassable. Just very, very difficult. Players still get to choose.[/QUOTE]

It isn't much of a "choice" for a first level character if using balance. Let's use the OP for guidance:

I figured about the best odds a 1st level player could get from the rules for the balance check are +4(dex), +4(balance),+2 (synergy from tumble). That takes it down to a dc 15 check. Throw into the equation spells such as reduce person and guidance, and its down to dc13. Other spells that could help are jump or animate rope.

He is picking a DC in his first post which he specifically admits that a trained PC will only have a 15% chance of success (no syngergy from tumble at level 1, and lets be honest, what parties will have reduce person just for the minor dex bump?)

And even then, that is only one character across! What about the pack mules?

No, the OP already admitted he wants the players to double back to a different path for some reason (either the delay is an important stop on this train, or there is some out of the way plot hook that doesn't make sense if it is on the main road, like an old abandoned inn).

My advice to the OP: Just make the path GONE. Washed away. You're otherwise just giving the illusion of choice, and not a very convincing one at the DC's you've decided on in your original posts.

I also want to reiterate Slobber Monster's point. Balance is not appropriate for this. Those DCs, as he already pointed out, refer specifically to a character running or charging. If you really want to emphasize finesse, I'd make sure you have a pretty convincing argument why a trained climber can't use his climbing skills to cross a rocky slope.

But as I said, it's all moot since apparently the object of this is to block the players.

I'll be starting my adventure with the 1st lvl pcs escorting a pack-mule train through mountainous passes when they come across a recent avalanche/rockslide across a trail. There'll be a shear drop on one side of the trail 15-20ft wide, and a 20ft climb on the other side with no advantage once you get up there, so basically the only alternatives will be crossing the very unstable scree slope or backtracking to another pass (the second being the preferred option for my game plans).

If you're going to do this, you might as well make it completely over the top and just have a rope bridge or something which one end of has snapped. You serve the same purpose, but it'll have two benefits:

1) Players are more likely to just say "screw this, lets take the other path" which is what you want them to do anyways.

2) Players are less likely to make an attempt as something that is clearly out of their league, thus avoiding what would likely be a death or two. Not a good way to start a campaign I might add.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Wildscape {which is at home right now} has good rules for these sorts of hazards... I will post a sample tonight if I remember and are not beaten by someone else with the book

 

[pressedcat]

Thanks for the feedback, and the point is well taken about giving the pc's a biased option; i'll be lowering the DC's by 5-10, and probably allowing either balance or climb checks. I originally chose balance as the closest example i could find was in the DMG in the environment:urban section under crossing a sloped roof (DC15). I guess i just got carried away with the dc and was being too inflexible with the way i wanted the outcome to go, which on second thoughts would have just been frustrating and pointless for the pc's. I'd already started to have a rethink since my last post as to whether i was being too harsh, and the replies you've posted confirm that.

As to how to get the mules across, just checked the monster manual, and i think i'll change them to donkeys (+3 on balance). Then possibly some handle animal checks, bracing ropes and whatever else the pc's can think of, and it might be possible to get everyone across (though not without risks). With the balance/climb checks reduced to dc15-20, does a cr of 3 sound about right?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

At home.. and posting under a deadline {dinner }

Wildscape using the concept of Hazards, and calls this one a 'Daunting Cliff'.
The hazard is a general terrain trait that covers an area of travel instead of a specific spot on the road. Your adventuring party wanders in overland movement and must pass Survival Checks to overcome these hazards.

There is a range from Minor {CR 1/2} to Severe {CR 3}. For your use, you probably want the lowest, CR 1/2..
Survival check: DC 15
Failure indicates losing 1D2 hours to backtracking and each PC must pass a check {Balance in your case} of DC 10 or take 2D6 damage from the Hazard. {note, this is 'falling' damage so a successful Tumble can convert 1 dice to non-lethal..}

This would be enough for your purposes, but I highly suggest the book if you plan on running the party through overland wilderness settings semi-regularly.

Heck, even if you dont the expanded Ranger fighting styles and Druidic options are worth the price of the book. IMHO, this book outpaces Frostburn and the other wilderness setting books...and does so all in one package.

YMMV