DCC Level 0 Character Funnel is a Bad Concept

[Arilyn]

The modern OSR has moved away from random death and "gotchas." A good adventure has choices, loopy dungeon design, telegraphs dangers so characters have meaningful choices, has lots of things for characters to interact with, and factions to ally with or oppose. Morale checks are also important. Monsters should flee or surrender instead of always fighting to the death. Clever play means that characters aren't dying constantly. Yes, the world is dangerous, but it is very possible to gain higher levels and retire.

There are many imaginative scenarios and games out there. I've got far more enjoyment out of Brad Kerr's Wyvern Songs for example than any recent hardcover adventure path.

This is not to say, it's the only way to play. I enjoy a wide variety of styles, including no-death games, narrativist play, quickie little zine games and lush thick hardcovers. Too many games.

 

[Retreater]

The modern OSR has moved away from random death and "gotchas." A good adventure has choices, loopy dungeon design, telegraphs dangers so characters have meaningful choices, has lots of things for characters to interact with, and factions to ally with or oppose. Morale checks are also important. Monsters should flee or surrender instead of always fighting to the death. Clever play means that characters aren't dying constantly. Yes, the world is dangerous, but it is very possible to gain higher levels and retire.

There are many imaginative scenarios and games out there. I've got far more enjoyment out of Brad Kerr's Wyvern Songs for example than any recent hardcover adventure path.

This is not to say, it's the only way to play. I enjoy a wide variety of styles, including no-death games, narrativist play, quickie little zine games and lush thick hardcovers. Too many games.

What do you consider "modern OSR" systems? I hear the term often, but examples usually aren't given.
The most recent OSR game I've heard discussed is Shadowdark, but it seems very much "random death, gotchas" and even uses character funnels.

 

[payn]

I guess the problem I have with this concept of "but DCC is hardcore and challenging" - I have no problem in killing characters and entire parties. (I have likely had more TPKs than most of the GMs on this board.) It's not difficult to write an adventure and have a trap that melts a character who steps on the wrong tile. Or have an overpowered, megalithic skeleton appear that is immune to all damage and just kill characters.
It's not creative. It's not unique. It's not exceptional in the least in the OSR sphere.
But ... how about presenting a unique site-based adventure with great puzzles and traps? Corridors and rooms that befuddle the characters (and their players)? Encounters that can be won with good strategy, luck, and character ability?
Balance - and the concept of a fair fight and a good challenge - is difficult to do. I think that's why we don't see it often in the OSR community. So many games in the OSR field go the easy route of "we didn't playtest this, don't really understand game design, and are essentially republishing the same rules from 1974 with minimal effort."
To make something where a more balanced, long-form experience is possible, that's more challenging. But honestly, you might as well play HeroQuest as many of these OSR games.

Some enjoy that skill play where combat is essentially a failed state and not an expected balanced fight. A lot of my experiences with DCC is push your luck, but be smart about it, until you are not. The point is to "republish the 1974 rules with minimal changes". Folks are not looking for it to line up in the modern design philosophy of gaming.

Also, if you dont happen to like any of that, it doesn't mean there is a problem with the game. It's a-ok for games to be made that are simply not for you (general).

 

[CapnZapp]

I like OSR style adventures and "outlook on adventuring", but I don't like "light" rule systems. Far too often I feel "light" systems try to sell you the obvious core rules that I don't need (they're basically the same across all of D&D). Or that they try to spin the fact you don't get very much for your money as something positive.

Almost every OSR game (including DCC) fails (for me) because the rules are confusing, badly edited, untested at high levels, or just without any crunch. Or they claim to be a "D&D successor" game without having enough of D&D to look and feel much like a D&D game at all...

Almost no alternative to actual D&D exists when you're not willing to "wing it" or look past rules that are wonky or odd. 5E is certainly not perfect, but light years ahead of a game like DCC when it comes to rules clarity, editing, balance and content.

Which is a shame, because WotC games don't easily bend towards the OSR ethos.

I would very much like to see someone attempt to use 5E as the foundation of an OSR-ish game, perhaps presented as a curated list of recommended optional rules you would need to shave off the bulk of the "you're the hero because we say so, no matter what you've actually endured" mentality of the vanilla 5E game.

 

[payn]

I like OSR style adventures and "outlook on adventuring", but I don't like "light" rule systems. Far too often I feel "light" systems try to sell you the obvious core rules that I don't need (they're basically the same across all of D&D). Or that they try to spin the fact you don't get very much for your money as something positive.

Almost every OSR game (including DCC) fails (for me) because the rules are confusing, badly edited, untested at high levels, or just without any crunch. Or they claim to be a "D&D successor" game without having enough of D&D to look and feel much like a D&D game at all...

Almost no alternative to actual D&D exists when you're not willing to "wing it" or look past rules that are wonky or odd. 5E is certainly not perfect, but light years ahead of a game like DCC when it comes to rules clarity, editing, balance and content.

Which is a shame, because WotC games don't easily bend towards the OSR ethos.

I would very much like to see someone attempt to use 5E as the foundation of an OSR-ish game, perhaps presented as a curated list of recommended optional rules you would need to shave off the bulk of the "you're the hero because we say so, no matter what you've actually endured" mentality of the vanilla 5E game.

Isnt that what OSE did?

 

[Arilyn]

What do you consider "modern OSR" systems? I hear the term often, but examples usually aren't given.
The most recent OSR game I've heard discussed is Shadowdark, but it seems very much "random death, gotchas" and even uses character funnels.

OSE is pretty much a D&D basic clone but a lot of the adventures are written in the more modern style. Gavin Nornan' s adventures are dangerous but perfectly survivable. Death often occurs cause characters choose the big risk or decide to go just a bit further. My only real gripe is the save or die poison. We have changed poison rules to be more interesting and not immediate death.

Shadowdark does not have to be littered with random deaths, and if you can get to a safe spot, you heal all hp over night. Characters do not die at 0 hp, so they can often be saved. There are also modes of play listed that can be adopted to make the game more or less deadly. Luck tokens really help mitigate disaster and pulp mode gives you more of them. The funnel idea is completely optional, easily skipped. I'm in a Shadowdark campaign and we have reached 4th level. The GM is not going easy on us. We're just being careful, paying attention to environmental clues, and not looting everything in sight.

Into the Odd games can be dangerous, for sure, but it's easy to heal unless you start taking stat damage.

Mausritter is mostly about clever play and reducing dangers. Little mice don't want to get into too much combat!

I was never a fan of dungeon crawling back in the day, but I'm finding a lot of the recent dungeons way more interesting and actually fun. I adore Mausritter and am thoroughly enjoying Shadowdark. I also can't wait to dive into Dolmenwood.

 

[Arilyn]

I would very much like to see someone attempt to use 5E as the foundation of an OSR-ish game, perhaps presented as a curated list of recommended optional rules you would need to shave off the bulk of the "you're the hero because we say so, no matter what you've actually endured" mentality of the vanilla 5E game.

Runehammer published "5e Hard Mode." I haven't read it myself, but maybe that would appeal to you? It's suppose to have stripped down the rules and make 5e dangerous.

 

[Retreater]

@Arilyn so it's more in the mentality of running the games and the adventures themselves that are modern than the systems?
I've found that I really liked the way Forbidden Lands merged OSR feel and more modern system design.

 

[Lanefan]

I like OSR style adventures and "outlook on adventuring", but I don't like "light" rule systems. Far too often I feel "light" systems try to sell you the obvious core rules that I don't need (they're basically the same across all of D&D). Or that they try to spin the fact you don't get very much for your money as something positive.

Almost every OSR game (including DCC) fails (for me) because the rules are confusing, badly edited, untested at high levels, or just without any crunch. Or they claim to be a "D&D successor" game without having enough of D&D to look and feel much like a D&D game at all...

Almost no alternative to actual D&D exists when you're not willing to "wing it" or look past rules that are wonky or odd. 5E is certainly not perfect, but light years ahead of a game like DCC when it comes to rules clarity, editing, balance and content.

DCC, like most old-school-like systems, somewhat relies on - and expects - the DM to do some kitbashing and revision. This probably needs to be made more clear in the books, though.

I would very much like to see someone attempt to use 5E as the foundation of an OSR-ish game, perhaps presented as a curated list of recommended optional rules you would need to shave off the bulk of the "you're the hero because we say so, no matter what you've actually endured" mentality of the vanilla 5E game.

I suspect that, in comparison to starting with B/X or 1e and bolting on some 5e-isms, this approach would take far more work.

 

[overgeeked]

App, you say?! I didn't know!

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