DCs for Falling Star Strike and Freezing the Lifeblood

[Pielorinho]

Sadly, I don't have OA here with me, so I'm hoping folks can help me clarify something.

A new PC, Monk5/PsyWar5, has these two feats, and has calculated the DCs as (10 + 1/2 PC level + Wis Bonus), or 19.

Someone else has suggested that, since they're based on the Monk's Stunning Fist ability and use that as a prerequisite, the DC should be calculated as (10 + 1/2 Monk level + Wis Bonus), or 17.

As the DM, of course, I'd be delighted if the second intepretation were correct; however, I want to give the player every fair chance. What do y'all think?

Daniel

 

[kreynolds]

Neither feats are restricted to monks, therefore I see no reason why it should not be + 1/2 character level.

 

[Pielorinho]

Neither feats are restricted to monks, therefore I see no reason why it should not be + 1/2 character level.

Well, the uses per day for it are drawn out of the monk's stunning attacks pools (this is from the errata); I think the question is why the DCs for them should be different from the DCs for the other attacks in the pool (i.e., the ones actually used for stunning attacks).

I think as written I agree with you, though; it just doesn't make that much sense, that an ability gained by virtue of being a monk and governed by monk limits would have a DC based on character level rather than class level.

Daniel

 

[kreynolds]

Well, the uses per day for it are drawn out of the monk's stunning attacks pools (this is from the errata)

Or a use of the stunning fist feat. You don't have to be a monk. It draws it's uses from either source. Stunning Attack if a monk. Stunning Fist if not.

I think the question is why the DCs for them should be different from the DCs for the other attacks in the pool (i.e., the ones actually used for stunning attacks).

They shouldn't be different. They should be the same, and since both feats are not restricted to any particular class, it doesn't make sense to base the DC on a particular class. You don't have to be a monk. You can just take the feat chain. If you take the feat chain, and the DC is based on monk levels, then you'd have a really low DC, because you have no monk levels.

I think as written I agree with you, though; it just doesn't make that much sense, that an ability gained by virtue of being a monk and governed by monk limits would have a DC based on character level rather than class level.

It isn't just governed by the monk though. It is governed also by the feat chain itself, in the event that you are not a monk.

 

[Pielorinho]

They shouldn't be different. They should be the same, and since both feats are not restricted to any particular class, it doesn't make sense to base the DC on a particular class. You don't have to be a monk. You can just take the feat chain. If you take the feat chain, and the DC is based on monk levels, then you'd have a really low DC, because you have no monk levels.

It isn't just governed by the monk though. It is governed also by the feat chain itself, in the event that you are not a monk.

If the DCs should be the same, how would you rule it for a character who gained access to the feat chain via the monk path? Should the DCs still be the same?

Remember that if you gain access to the feat chain via the feat stunning blow (or whatever), you gain 1 stunning attack/four levels/day. The monk ability is useable 1/level/day, and in exchange has a lower DC (based off class level, not off character level).

Freezing Lifeblood is useable 1/level/day if you draw it from the monk's stunning fist pool; since its uses/day is based on the Monk's class level, should its DC also be based on the Monk's class level?

Daniel

 

[kreynolds]

If the DCs should be the same, how would you rule it for a character who gained access to the feat chain via the monk path?

How do you mean? Do you mean a monk that has taken the stunning fist feat?

 

[Tellerve]

hey, i'm the player in question. It is like this, i'm a 5th monk/5th psionic warrior.

I picked up freezing the lifeblood and falling star strike.

Now, as written in monks area the monk gets 1 stunning attack per level per day. The DC is 10+1/2 monk+wis modifier, which for me would be 18 I guess, 10 +1/2 of 5 +4. Anyways, since I picked up these other feats do how do their dc's and timers per day work?

I was of the opinion although I didn't see it in OA anywhere is that the two new feats I got pull from the times per day of my stunning attack. Now, as I'm pulling from my monk's stunning attack ability do I use the DC of 1/2 monk level or do I use the DC as described in the feat? I think the feat's description, but obviously there is conjecture with my DM.

Tellerve

 

[kreynolds]

The DC is 10+1/2 monk+wis modifier, which for me would be 18 I guess, 10 +1/2 of 5 +4.

Half of 5 rounded down is 2, so it would be 16. Anyways, considering the language of the feats, I would personally be inclined to go with the higher DC of both feats, whether you're a monk or not. However, a more conservative approach would be to base the DC on where the stunning source came from.

For example, if you qualify for the feats because you have Stunning Attack, then base the DC like a monk (10 + half monk level + wis). If you qualify because you took the feat chain, then base the DC as the character (10 + half character level + wis). In either case, use the original source to determine number of times per day.

You guys should definately put this question before Skip and CS. I'd be interested to see what their response is.

 

[takyris]

Hi Tellerve,

First off, isn't (10 + 1/2 of 5 + 4) equal to 16, not 18? 10 + 2 (half of 5, rounded down) +4?

As I understand it, the balance and tradeoff for Stunning Fist as a feat versus a Monk ability is that as a feat, you don't get it as many times per day, but as a Monk ability, you only use your monk levels to determine the save DC. I could be way wrong on this.

It does some odd to be using the x/day of the monk and the save DC of the overall character level. Not an OA expert, though, and this may be different than in the ordinary rules.

 

[kreynolds]

As I understand it, the balance and tradeoff for Stunning Fist as a feat versus a Monk ability is that as a feat, you don't get it as many times per day, but as a Monk ability, you only use your monk levels to determine the save DC.

Correct, as Pielorinho mentioned above.