Dealing with Greater Invisibility

[smetzger]

That's just plain not true (to quote somebody or other).

The DC 20 check is to notice that there's an Invisible being somewhere in the area. It doesn't pinpoint anything.



You want to "Pinpoint" them? You need a roll of 40+ if they're stationary.

I stand corrected. I had assumed that +20 DC for pinpointing was against there hide check, but re-reading it does seam more likely to refer to be additive to the initial DC 20 to notice them within 30 ft.

So assuming the invisible creature is moving, not hiding and not moving silently, and there is a battle going on. What is the Spot DC to pinpoint them? What about the Listen DC?

Spot DC 20(notice) + 20 (pinpoint) + hide check + 1 for every 10ft beyond 30 ft (initial DC 20 is for within 30 ft). So if they aren't Hiding that's a 0, correct? So we get 40

What about listen?
Listen DC 0 but with a -5 circumstance penalty for combat and +1 per 10ft distance
So effectively DC 5 + 1/10 ft???

What about flying? What is the Listen DC for a magically flying creature that is not moving silently?

 

[Greenfield]

Typically I presume that everyone is "Taking ten" on things like Hide/Move Silent. That is, unless they're trying to make noise or be otherwise obvious about it they'll put a causal effort into it.

So noticing little things like the shuffle of footsteps where there shouldn't be any, the little differences in the way the air moves dust around an unseen object etc.? That's the basic DC 20 to know that there's something invisible within 30 feet, but not necessarily *where* within that 30 feet.

Know which square they're in, when moving? Figure 30-ish unless they're attempting stealth.

Know which square they're in when standing still? Back to 40 + stealth (where I presume a take 10 on the stealth at a minimum).

Track them by sound? I don't know the numbers off hand, but they're in the book.

Now the "Take 10" hing is my own standard, a house rule. By the same toke, everyone is presumed to be "Taking 10" on their Spot/Listen/Perception rolls as well.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

Ultimately, unless someone has a +15 or better in their Spot, they won't just casually notice the invisible person stalking them. They have to look and listen, and have to tell the DM so. If they don't then there's a -5 modifier that applies for "Distracted" Spot and/or Listen checks, so their casual Take 10 becomes a 5. +15 or over will notice. Otherwise, no.

 

[smetzger]

Typically I presume that everyone is "Taking ten" on things like Hide/Move Silent. That is, unless they're trying to make noise or be otherwise obvious about it they'll put a causal effort into it.

Yeah, that's def a house rule. Thing is moving silently you can only move 1/2 your speed.

Is my RAW above correct.. Spot Pinpoint DC 40 + 1 for every 10 ft beyond 30 ft?

What about the listen check? and listen for magical flight?

 

[Greenfield]

As for the Spot, don't forget the possibility of cover, and if they are trying to hide you count that as well. Otherwise, as far as I can tell you're good on the Spot.

I'd have to look in the book for the Listen rules to pinpoint a location.

And as far as I know, magical flight, such as a Fly spell, doesn't inherently make any noise. No footsteps, no body movements required so even armor clank would be minimal. You'd be down to listening for the sound of them breathing, which would be absolutely lost during a battle.

So unless they're drawing a weapon or doing some other significant body movement (drawing an arrow, drawing back on a bow, reaching into their pack etc.), I'd treat that as if they were stationary.

Again, that's an opinion, a house rule if you will. I don't know what the RAW would be, if there is any.
.....
Took a moment to check the PHB. It lists the Listen check to hear an Owl gliding in for the kill at DC 30. So I'd start with that and add Armor Check penalties and maybe add Dex bonus. Dexterous people just move less clumsily, after all. Actual Move Silent skill ranks I'd omit unless the invisible person is explicitly trying to remain Silent.

It also mentions that an Invisible attacker gains an automatic +2 to their attack rolls, on top of the enemy being denied their Dexterity bonus.

 

[smetzger]

And as far as I know, magical flight, such as a Fly spell, doesn't inherently make any noise. No footsteps, no body movements required so even armor clank would be minimal. You'd be down to listening for the sound of them breathing, which would be absolutely lost during a battle.

....Took a moment to check the PHB. It lists the Listen check to hear an Owl gliding in for the kill at DC 30.

Yeah that diving owl is closest, but Owls are pretty darn small compared to a medium sized creature.

I think I am going to house rule Fly is more wuxia, so there is a fluttering/flapping of clothes (when moving) and its a DC 10+ 1/every 10ft to pinpoint. Still difficult, but much more doable for a mid-level character.

Yet more issues that I do not believe are covered in RAW...
1) Finding general location of an invisible creature enough to target with an area spell (such as glitterdust which is 10' rad).

2) Dispel Magic - Targeted on the Invisibility Spell. So, do I need to know where the invisible creature is? I am not targeting the creature, just the spell.

 

[Greenfield]

Generally DC 10 skill checks are considered easy. DC 15 is a common standard for common tasks that aren't in the "casual" range.

I'd probably set the Listen DC at 20 + distance.

Also remember that, per RAW, there's a -10 on the check if there's a battle going on.

And, from the SRD:

A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

From the Players Handbook:

invisible: Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). (Invisibility has no effect against blinded or otherwise nonsighted creatures.) An invisible creature’s location cannot be pinpointed by visual means. It has total concealment; even if an attacker correctly guesses the invisible creature’s location, the attacker has a 50% miss chance in combat.
An invisible creature gains a +40 bonus on Hide checks if immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if moving. Locating the square an invisible creature occupies requires a Spot check (DC 40 if the creature is immobile, DC 20 if the creature moved during its last turn), modified by appropriate factors (such as an armor check penalty or a penalty for movement).

There's also quite an extensive section in the DMG, Page 295. The SRD excerpt I pulled above seems to come from there.

 

[smetzger]

A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location..

Ah... Epic rules...forgot to check there...

So, to pinpoint an invisible creature with Listen...
Move Silently + 20 + 10(if in battle) + 1 per 10ft
If not moving silently then that is a 0.
If flying, well up to DMs purvue on what to add.

 

[Greenfield]

Ah... Epic rules...forgot to check there...

Nothing Epic about it. Those sources are the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide.

So, to pinpoint an invisible creature with Listen...
Move Silently + 20 + 10(if in battle) + 1 per 10ft
If not moving silently then that is a 0.
If flying, well up to DMs purvue on what to add.

Almost.

Start with a base Listen DC that's their Move Silent. If they're talking or fighting, that's a zero. If they're moving at full speed, drop the DC by 4, but never below zero. If you make that DC you know you heard something "somewhere over there". That is, a general direction with a guesstimate on distance, nothing more.

Now add modifiers.
If there's a lot of background noise, like a noisy bar or a battle, add 10 to the DC.
If they're some distance away, add 1 to the DC per 10 feet.
If they're behind an obstacle like a door add 5 to the DC
If they're behind a more formidable obstacle, like a stone wall the DC goes up by 15

To pinpoint their exact square, add 20 to the DC.

 

[PurpleDragonKnight]

set your dog on him: scent

 

[Dandu]

In other words, it's not a problem, walk it off.

Got it.

Greenfield, from accounts of your gaming that you have shared, I am under the impression that you are at least 40 years of age. Is this correct?