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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Erechel" data-source="post: 7411739" data-attributes="member: 6784868">And this is where the discussion degenerates from a real discussion to a bait and flamewar. Degenerate storytelling game, yeah. Of course. Except that it is a storytelling game. Both, storytelling AND game. And thus, you have agency to choose your actions, and you have MECHANICS to decide how to resolve said elections. If there is only one action, you deny both STORYTELLING AND GAME. You don't decide anything at all. You deny disarm that already has a mechanic, because you decide to... arbitrarily. You deny Improvised Actions, arbitrarily. You deny players agency, the base of ANY RPG, on behalf of DM's lazyness. Besides, you are grossly misunderstanding combat (and sword combat, in particular) if you don't acknowledge shoves, grapples, disarms, parries, counterattacks, feints, etc. "I attack" and piling damage all the time isn't what you do at all in a sword fight. But you don't have to believe me: consult ANY fencing manual, if you look for a more accurate response. Here, courtesy from Talhoffer, a fencing master of the 15th century.[ATTACH]97084[/ATTACH]There are a LOT of real world techniques. Many of them are possible to emulate through attack roles, many other don't. Sometimes, you want the other guy to be less effective, because his effectiveness implies you or your comrades get hurt, EVEN IF YOU WIN THE FIGHT. And that's the whole point. It doesn't matter than you kill the evil wizard if half your companions fell.But again, you can even ignore realism (HP are far, far away from realism): You are grossly misundertanding verosimilitude and genre conventions if you deny that an Archmage shouldn't be near a sword-wielding 2-meters tall brute. And even more if said brute can attempt things that appear in so different series as Conan, El Zorro and Adventure Time every time an evil wizard appears or there is a fight. 30 feet isn't the distance also, furthermore: it is the distance of one movement. One. It doesn't even take an action to reach them. And also, you are thinking in 2 dimensions only: think in 3D. FLY. Levitate. In every post I've made the same easy, obvious ways to the wizard to get out of melee.And, again, you are ignoring that a whole third of the book is spellcasting, and every spell has noted its components. There are more mentions to them than to attacks, or swords: 475 spells only in the PHB, plus the Spellcasting chapter, makes at least 476 mentions to them, without counting the spellcasting part of every class in the game. Yes, even the Martials have a spellcasting subtitle in their subclasses, or the Items chapter, where the Arcane, Divine and Druidic focus are. Yeah, real waste of space. They aren't there. At all. we will ignore their existance althogetherThe underlying reality of the game? Ignoring real world and fantasy tropes at the same time because your only measure in a fight is DPR? That has HIT POINTS? And you say I'm a permissive DM and my DM is a moron, evidently, when you are talking about magic swords, that aren't even counted for in the game. Those rules on magic swords? Entirely optional. In the same book than the Disarm action. And Disarm isn't an improvised action. Much less grapples and shoves, that you someway imply that are wrong, too, "because you aren't using your sword". And another time, the same strawman: Everytime you fight an unprepared, stupid wizard in melee that doesn't even has a hold person prepared to negate the fighter to take any action, and that rushes into melee with him without even worry to cast freedom of movement on himself or having a MINION at his side. In fact, it is EXTREMELY situational. Disarm requires a sword, you know. It is an armed attack against another weapon. Your solution... is not even a solution. 30 feet is one walk away: if two characters focus fire in them, they are dead. And then, again, you read what you want, selecting a tiny bit of my answer and make a strawman. My solution to melee by a wizard are plenty: gangbang of minions, a familiar helping the rolls, flying ten feet upwards, prepare spells to avoid being grappled, hold person, charm, blink, mirror image, blur, a ladder, a balcony, difficult terrain, weapon and skill training. Yeah, really is only "being at hundred feets". It is not that you only focus on solo DPR as your balancer and only measure of effectiveness: You are now ignoring also the HUMONGOUS spell list that allow a caster not being in melee. And another strawman when you say "instant-win fighters", ignoring that the caster has exactly the same possibilities (in fact, better chances, because of disadvantage and several spells) of getting away from a choke that only denies their Verbal components, but keeps them alive, than the fighter of getting away of hold person. It isn't instant-win, and you keep saying that like it was true: it is a fallacy. As your entire "balance" issue: is a begging the question fallacy. The entire premise resides on accepting that DPR is the balancing factor, by excluding any other factor which the wizard masters, and then deny the very same things that, in your tought, won't affect balance as they don't include DPR. Bad news, if solo DPR is the only measure of balance, the wizard is screwed, no matter if the fighter has or not a choke movement... even more if it don't as the fighter must renounce to DPR to choke someone. If versatility (as in the old Tier system) and crowd DPR are included, then the wizard win by a long, long measure, and choking and disarming becomes a necessity for the fighter to not get waaaaay back.I now undestand why you believe that wizards are almost useless. I'm now sure that you are playing them just wrong: your games just favors all the strengths of the fighters, and none of their weaknesses. You keep in melee without any preemptive measure, ignoring any kind of spell that doesn't favor DPR. Yes, when you look it that way, they are useless.</blockquote>

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