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Dealing with spellcasters as a martial
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<blockquote data-quote="TheSword" data-source="post: 7412356" data-attributes="member: 6879661"><p>A couple of points.</p><p></p><p>- Kicking unsheathed swords isn’t the same as kicking a football. Particularly if it’s magical. What happens when you miss the hilt and slice your toes off, or kick the hilt in such a way as to cause the blade to swing round and sever your Achilles’ tendon. </p><p></p><p>- Who says the wizard carries the arcane focus all the time? They only pull it out when they need to cast a spell with a free material component, then if it’s free why wouldn’t they also have a spell component pouch.</p><p></p><p>- I’m fundamentally against the need for every encounter to include minions. In some circumstances a high level wizard should be able to hold their own for a round without getting rugby tackled. Even if most times they do have them around.</p><p></p><p>- No one saw orcs grappling Gandalf in combat, he had a weapon and used it. The old trope of wizards being helpless has gone with 3rd ed (arguably 2nd). Welcome to a world where wizards can at least stand up straight and hold a weapon. We don’t need a second concentration mechanic, hence spells not provoking. You can still interrupt the powerful magic that they’re concentrating on by damaging them.</p><p></p><p>- Grapple builds are already very good. There is no need to make them any better than they already are. It’s enough to knock someone prone and sit on them without stacking further debuffs on top.</p><p></p><p>- I think Erechel is severely overestimating what wizards can do. The days of wizards zipping around like dragon flies ended with concentration. Are you aware that if you break concentration now you fall like a stone? You can’t stack those spells, and summoning minions is highly limited. He’s also ignoring the way most spellcasters are interacted with PCs in published campaigns - which is not from 150 feet away firing fireballs.</p><p></p><p>- With scrolls and wands reduced and spell slots dramatically reduced, wizards aren’t the versatile casters they were and they don’t have solutions to every problem if they are played honestly by the DM who has given them a set spell roster. While I do have a narrower definition of DM metagaming than some posters... NPCs knowing the party’s weaknesses when they haven’t seen them or had an opportunity to learn them definitely IS metagaming.</p><p></p><p>- I’m all for interesting improvised actions. That doesn’t mean you get to do whatever you like. In tonight’s adventure we were tied up and manacled. We said we wanted to try and slip free. The DM said sure you can get free of the ropes with a sufficiently high athletics or acrobatics check but you can’t get free of the manacled. Period. They’re too tight and they’re made of iron. </p><p></p><p>- This debate just sounds like a player who thinks they have come up with a wonderful plan and has been shot down. Of course you can run it in the campaigns you DM... but I suspect that isn’t why you want it. As a player you want to stick it to Wizards when you fight them not sure why but good luck taking it to another table.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="TheSword, post: 7412356, member: 6879661"] A couple of points. - Kicking unsheathed swords isn’t the same as kicking a football. Particularly if it’s magical. What happens when you miss the hilt and slice your toes off, or kick the hilt in such a way as to cause the blade to swing round and sever your Achilles’ tendon. - Who says the wizard carries the arcane focus all the time? They only pull it out when they need to cast a spell with a free material component, then if it’s free why wouldn’t they also have a spell component pouch. - I’m fundamentally against the need for every encounter to include minions. In some circumstances a high level wizard should be able to hold their own for a round without getting rugby tackled. Even if most times they do have them around. - No one saw orcs grappling Gandalf in combat, he had a weapon and used it. The old trope of wizards being helpless has gone with 3rd ed (arguably 2nd). Welcome to a world where wizards can at least stand up straight and hold a weapon. We don’t need a second concentration mechanic, hence spells not provoking. You can still interrupt the powerful magic that they’re concentrating on by damaging them. - Grapple builds are already very good. There is no need to make them any better than they already are. It’s enough to knock someone prone and sit on them without stacking further debuffs on top. - I think Erechel is severely overestimating what wizards can do. The days of wizards zipping around like dragon flies ended with concentration. Are you aware that if you break concentration now you fall like a stone? You can’t stack those spells, and summoning minions is highly limited. He’s also ignoring the way most spellcasters are interacted with PCs in published campaigns - which is not from 150 feet away firing fireballs. - With scrolls and wands reduced and spell slots dramatically reduced, wizards aren’t the versatile casters they were and they don’t have solutions to every problem if they are played honestly by the DM who has given them a set spell roster. While I do have a narrower definition of DM metagaming than some posters... NPCs knowing the party’s weaknesses when they haven’t seen them or had an opportunity to learn them definitely IS metagaming. - I’m all for interesting improvised actions. That doesn’t mean you get to do whatever you like. In tonight’s adventure we were tied up and manacled. We said we wanted to try and slip free. The DM said sure you can get free of the ropes with a sufficiently high athletics or acrobatics check but you can’t get free of the manacled. Period. They’re too tight and they’re made of iron. - This debate just sounds like a player who thinks they have come up with a wonderful plan and has been shot down. Of course you can run it in the campaigns you DM... but I suspect that isn’t why you want it. As a player you want to stick it to Wizards when you fight them not sure why but good luck taking it to another table. [/QUOTE]
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