Dealing with talk monkeys

[Samir]

One thing that I think is a mistake is having your players ask you to make checks. Something that solves a lot of problems is asking them what they want to do, and then you telling them what checks to make. If you want to get even more in depth with it, ask them to roleplay out their Diplomacy, Bluff, and even Intimidate checks before they can roll.

In your situation, the talker would have to come up with a reasonable description of what he's going to say to the hobgoblins. That makes it a good deal more realistic when they say "hell no" despite his 30+ roll.

Treat it like you would a Bluff check. In conversation, you don't have the players roll Bluff checks unless they actually try to tell a lie, right?

 

[CableRouter]

So, I have this big encounter set up. It's got everything; there's monsters and traps and a big set-piece battle to bust into an enemy fortress! The players are all ready to go, and then the warlock says those dreaded words....

"I'm gonna use Diplomacy."

Oh god. He's level five, and he rolls a total of 32 (18 on the die + 4 charisma + 5 trained + 5 power bonus), so now I have to deal with it.

Diplomacy isn't "I make them do whatever I want if I roll high enough." It can influence an NPC only if that NPC is willing to be influenced in the first place and won't force an NPC to do something against their nature, like violate their orders or make them take their own life.

On the other hand, if you want to con a group of guards that you really are authorized to pass the gate and your letter from their commander got burned up in a battle with a hydra, Bluff is the skill to use. I'd probably give a 10 or 15 point penalty for a bluff that outrageous, but a lucky player specialized in Bluff might pull it off.

And don't get too wrapped up in the "Encounter Power" cost, it's going to get used in just about every conversation you ever have with that player until the campaign ends since he can use it every 5 minutes.

In the future, if you end up with a set piece like that, make sure the players are going to fight before you spend any time setting up your maps and minis. Also, accept that the players are going to end up going over, around, through or under some of your prize encounters; it's what they do, encourage them to succeed in unexpected ways and reward them for doing so. If it happens, let it go, and file your set piece in a "to be used later" folder. A couple of months down the line you can reuse the encounter with some higher level monsters and a bit of tweaking so it looks like a completely different encounter.

The one thing you don't want to do is continually override the player's ability to defeat challenges in nonstandard ways. One of the most annoying things a DM can do to his players is make their choices and plans meaningless by visibly forcing them on a set path through an adventure.

The key is visibly, there are lots of things you can do behind the scenes to get things back on track and it's usually not too hard to drop in an extra "wandering" encounter to make up for one the party breezed through with luck or a good plan. Also, keep your calm and if you are unsure of your ability to improvise on the spot don't be afraid to say "Wow guys, I didn't see that coming." and either end the session early or let everyone take a break while you shuffle things around.

 

[LostSoul]

A skill challenge is probably the best way to resolve it.

You might want to consider giving the PCs a surprise round or give the guards a -2 to attack rolls against the Beguiling PC (save ends).

(A surprise round isn't going to be too helpful if the PCs don't have their weapons drawn; if they do have their weapons drawn, a big penalty to the Diplomacy check is in order. If they have Quick Draw, good for them, make the Feat count.)

 

[Skallgrim]

Also, even a really, really good diplomacy roll is a first step to resolving this situation without a conflict.

Our party rogue crept up to the Troll Warren gates, and then tried a Bluff check (I want to ally with Skalmad, the unkillable troll king!). She got a fantastic roll. This led the trolls to consider this. If she had played along, they might have opened the door (a crack) to let her in, to plead her case to Skalmad. They wouldn't have opened the doors and let the party march in with just that one check. She didn't really want to amble into the warrens alone, so I let her successful Bluff check give her combat advantage, and she buried a shuriken in one troll's face!).

For your diplomacy roll, maybe this attempt at diplomacy gets the Warlock an invitation to speak with the commander of the keep. Does he go into the keep by himself? Even if he can't talk them out of the fight, he might be able to "scout out" the layout and troop levels during his negotiations. Maybe his good diplomacy check gets the guards to summon an important commander to talk to them from the castle walls. Even if the negotiations fail, the party might get a chance to assassinate (or at least fireball) an important enemy early on.

If a player makes a good roll on an appropriate skill, give them an appropriate benefit. It doesn't have to derail the adventure, but a good, clever idea should always have some tangible benefit for the party, even if it isn't what they expected.

Here's an interesting one: Maybe the warlock's eloquent diplomacy convinces the enemy to agree to a code of conduct for the siege. Both sides agree to spare downed foes (knock unconscious rather than kill) and agree to ransom prisoners (so you can trade captured foes for captured friends). Suddenly, the fight seems less intimidating and lethal and deadly, even though all the 'rules' are technically the same, and the Warlock is the big hero. There's still a fight, but now, everybody's being honorable about it.

 

[chitzk0i]

These hobgoblins might just attack squishy humans on sight. If they listen, I'd probably run it like this:
Me: The taller hobgoblin says, "Kabo chee ta-Ka" and spits. Do you speak goblin?

If the player does, I'd let him roll diplomacy with arbitrary minuses for the plausibility of his explanation of what his character says. Then I'd have a small skill challenge. The objective would be finding something you could tell these hobgoblins that would get you in the gate. At best, I'd let this get them an advantage, not bypass (any of) the fights at this location.

 

[DracoSuave]

And for "winning an encouter with one attack", how about 20 minutes of pure roleplay and a skill challenge? I would go for it!

This.

Diplomacy is not a replacement for fighting, or even attacks.

However, -Skill Challenges- are allowed as part of, or a replacement for, combat during an encounter!

And it allows other players to chip in.

And don't forget, +10 for hostile enemies!

If the player wants to talk down some enemies while the rest of the party fights, well, you know what you do.

Each level of challenge compexity represents one monster of the level of the challenge. So substitute A for B. If he takes a compexity 3 challenge, and he succeeds (going round by round while the party fights on around him) then the people he's talking to won't join in. If he fails three times, then they join in the battle.

 

[fba827]

As others have pointed out, one good skill check should not avoid an entire combat. The other option is of course to play it out entirely as a skill challenge (also a valid tactic)

But, let's say there is a good skill check at the start but you know it will break down to combat later (they won't be able to keep up the social skill checks once the other PCs start acting in there)...
So what does the one/two good diplomacy rolls get the party? (i.e. a mix of diplomacy followed by combat)

* One person (above) suggested a surprise round (to reflect the enemy's slow response to an attack during parley).
* maybe, for the first round of combat, the enemies take a -1 per 2 diplomacy success (to reflect that "but, we were just about to have tea and cookies!" hesitation)
* maybe it grants the PC who succeeded in diplmacy combat advantage for the first round (to reflect the enemy not expecting it from that person)
* it buys the PCs the option to withdrawl without being persued

Not all of these are great ideas, nor will they all work equally in every situation. Just trying to get some ideas that could be considered....

Anyway, what are some other ideas?

 

[lectric]

Another thing to consider....

Since you know that this player likes to use Diplomacy, and talk his way out of fights, create some encounters that are designed for him to really use his gift of gab.

This way, everybody wins. You get to use your fight encounter that you worked so hard on, your player is satisfied that he can sometimes talk his way into (or out of) a situation.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think you did the right thing. Diplomacy makes someone your friend, not your slave.

How many of your friends would throw their job (and potentially their lives) away just because you asked them to?

On the other hand, if the warlock had had the sense to, he might have been able to extract some information about the fight from his new friend, or even persuade him not to fight too hard (ie - to back off once he's bloodied instead of fighting to the death, for example).

 

[surfarcher]

This.

Diplomacy is not a replacement for fighting, or even attacks.

However, -Skill Challenges- are allowed as part of, or a replacement for, combat during an encounter!

And it allows other players to chip in.

And don't forget, +10 for hostile enemies!

If the player wants to talk down some enemies while the rest of the party fights, well, you know what you do.

Each level of challenge compexity represents one monster of the level of the challenge. So substitute A for B. If he takes a compexity 3 challenge, and he succeeds (going round by round while the party fights on around him) then the people he's talking to won't join in. If he fails three times, then they join in the battle.

Exactly!

I get tired of pointing out to people that 4e skills aren't intended to be used in isolation (ok, the simplest of tasks and scenarios aside). They are supposed to be used in combination and in opposition. The 4e skill system is supposed to be a lot more granular than in earlier versions.

In a dynamic and tense situation a single skill roll should never, ever bring the entire situation to a close. Roleplay and skill challenge is the appropriate alternative.