Dealing with troublesome players (broken & passive)

[0Trygger]

I am a DM, I've ran a few games with the same group of friends. I have a party of 5, though there are 2 players that I constantly give me issues. Both of them tend to go out of the way to build the most broken character they can build. One of them even told me that his way of having fun was by breaking his character. The other one, on top of having a broken character has only one alignment, chaotic-evil. If he can't play chaotic-evil he will play chaotic-neutral and try to come with some roundabout reason why his character just committed an evil act. This doesn't help things when 4/5 players play chaotic in general.

The 2 powergamers throw out the balance of the party so in order to challenge them I risk nearly killing or end up killing the other 3.

The one thing that I do like is that they are the better role-played of the group, the other 3 are pretty bland and sit back most of the time going "ow I do this," " I do that," or "I try to convince the merchant to lower the price." I will give credit to one of them, he does try at times, he is just a more reserved person and I understand that. But the other 2, one spends his time on his PS4 (we meet at his house), and the other is watching videos on YouTube.

I have tried numerous times to push them. Couple of sessions ago I talked to the 2 powergamers that I was going to separate them and they were to just sit the game out and that turned into a nightmare. The other 3 were completely lost. The party got separated in an Anti-Magic dungeon by a cave-in and they had to find their way out. They had no unity and just started doing there own thing. No one had a take charge attitude and we're completely indecisive on everything. One would throw out a suggestion but would never act on it. I would even give them ideas, and they still wouldn't do anything. In the end the one of the powergamers started telling them what to do, then they did it (after I got onto him for telling them what to do)

So I'm stuck between 2 good roleplayers that try to build gods at level 1, 2 players that want to have fun but aren't putting any effort into it. The last one I don't have much of an issue with because he has been trying he's just more soft-spoken and none of the other players listen to him. Personally I want to just have fun telling a story, I personally hate the whole Player vs DM mentally, but I still want them to struggle somewhat.

How would you guys deal with this? Any advice would be appreciated. I will also mention I do live Ina rural area so I don't have many options of finding a new group. This is the part of the US where geek culture is looked down upon, not really hated, but people here tend to focus more on farming, sports, and hunting, then getting drunk afterwards (or during).

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Read some article about psychology, about toxic people and social skills. Other people aren't good players because they aren't fools but suffer some psychological flaw as learned helplessness, atychiphobia (fear of failure because they are too much perfectionist and mentally frozen) or avoidant personality disorder. Sometimes this happen with children who have suffered school bullying.

Don't try to force, but try to use positive incentives, carrots work than sticks. This is the reason some people lose lots of money with gambling. A good trick to convince is launching challenges.

Also you could tell a story about a character as Mary Sue/Gary Stu, very powerful and perfect, but alone, a fallen star who turned unpopular because his social skills were horrible, too proud and troublemaker. Maybe he is a (forgotten) vestige summoned by a binder and now this is his "host". The PCs have to face their own parodies.

 

[Nebulous]

Good post man. Before I got to the end, I was thinking "he needs a new group to solve this problem" but then you stated the part about the rural area. Have you considered whittling the group down to just you and the 3 players you think would bring the most enjoyment to the game? Maybe the combination of such disparate personalities is insurmountable.

Also, how well do you know each of them?

 

[iserith]

I am a DM, I've ran a few games with the same group of friends. I have a party of 5, though there are 2 players that I constantly give me issues. Both of them tend to go out of the way to build the most broken character they can build. One of them even told me that his way of having fun was by breaking his character. The other one, on top of having a broken character has only one alignment, chaotic-evil. If he can't play chaotic-evil he will play chaotic-neutral and try to come with some roundabout reason why his character just committed an evil act. This doesn't help things when 4/5 players play chaotic in general.

The 2 powergamers throw out the balance of the party so in order to challenge them I risk nearly killing or end up killing the other 3.

You say you "DM" so I assume you're playing D&D, but which edition is it?

The one thing that I do like is that they are the better role-played of the group, the other 3 are pretty bland and sit back most of the time going "ow I do this," " I do that," or "I try to convince the merchant to lower the price." I will give credit to one of them, he does try at times, he is just a more reserved person and I understand that. But the other 2, one spends his time on his PS4 (we meet at his house), and the other is watching videos on YouTube.

I have tried numerous times to push them. Couple of sessions ago I talked to the 2 powergamers that I was going to separate them and they were to just sit the game out and that turned into a nightmare. The other 3 were completely lost. The party got separated in an Anti-Magic dungeon by a cave-in and they had to find their way out. They had no unity and just started doing there own thing. No one had a take charge attitude and we're completely indecisive on everything. One would throw out a suggestion but would never act on it. I would even give them ideas, and they still wouldn't do anything. In the end the one of the powergamers started telling them what to do, then they did it (after I got onto him for telling them what to do)

It may be worth asking them why they are so passive in a game where they are presumably incentivized via XP and treasure to get after their goals. (Do they even have goals?) This may allow you to discover what motivates them and you can modify your content and presentation accordingly.

So I'm stuck between 2 good roleplayers that try to build gods at level 1, 2 players that want to have fun but aren't putting any effort into it. The last one I don't have much of an issue with because he has been trying he's just more soft-spoken and none of the other players listen to him. Personally I want to just have fun telling a story, I personally hate the whole Player vs DM mentally, but I still want them to struggle somewhat.

How would you guys deal with this? Any advice would be appreciated. I will also mention I do live Ina rural area so I don't have many options of finding a new group. This is the part of the US where geek culture is looked down upon, not really hated, but people here tend to focus more on farming, sports, and hunting, then getting drunk afterwards (or during).

This definitely sounds like a group that isn't on the same page with each other and could stand to have a conversation to discuss their goals and reset their expectations. A chat about how to best cooperate with each other is also in order, including how to make sure everyone gets an equitable amount of time in the spotlight. There appears to be some amount of disinterest in the game itself coming from at least two of the players, so I would make sure to engage them to find out what does interest them more than the PS4 and YouTube, then I would modify my game accordingly.

If that doesn't work, you can always try to game online via virtual table tops like Roll20. This will increase your total pool of players and you can screen out troublesome people to build the ideal group for your game. This isn't quite the same as gaming in person, but can be just as fun or more fun, considering in my experience you can get more done in a less time.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

That's a tough situation; sorry to hear that you're struggling with it. That being said, as so often is recommended here, I'd say talk to the players. To the powergamers, you could say something like "I understand that you enjoy powergaming, but it's making my job as a DM harder, trying to balance encounters for the table, and I'd really appreciate it if you toned it down a notch."

As for the passive players, again, try talking to them. It could be that they're not enjoying being paired up with and out-shined by the powergamers. Or it could be something else. At the least, you could just ask them what they want out of gaming. Encourage honesty - maybe they're just not into gaming. I know I'd rather someone say "hey, this isn't for me" than continue to put in the effort I do to make games enjoyable.

One thing to bear in mind is that, as a consequence, one or more of the players could decide to bow out. Change is hard, especially personal change, and some people just would rather not.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Even if you’re rural and limited on players, bad gaming is worse than no gaming. Also, you still have other players.
If they don’t want to play in your style and insist on being disruptive, then they can not play. It’s their choice. It’s your game. Disruptive people often take advantage of others to push their behavior, then gaslight you into thinking you’re the jerk for not allowing them a seat at your table.

so give them a chance, but don’t give up your fun or the fun of the other players because they are disruptive. I’ve been DMing for over 35 years, and no one plays chaotic evil or neutral unless they have a good reason and I know the player is constructive and can do it. A rule I’ve long held.

 

[billd91]

How would you guys deal with this? Any advice would be appreciated. I will also mention I do live Ina rural area so I don't have many options of finding a new group. This is the part of the US where geek culture is looked down upon, not really hated, but people here tend to focus more on farming, sports, and hunting, then getting drunk afterwards (or during).

Yeah, that can make it tough. If you want to game, you kind of get stuck with what's available. I experienced that back in the 1980s. Some of those people are my best friends to this day, and some others are just people we were largely stuck with.
I understand that sometimes no gaming is better than bad gaming, but playing with a motley crew of whomever is around is sometimes better than nothing, even with all the headaches. You just need to approach it from a perspective of being entertained even if not edified by the experience. You may even learn something by observing what not to do.

As far as dealing with power gamers and wallflowers, that can be tough. Best advice I can give is provide a mix of creatures in the encounters - some geared up for more optimization and some not. The higher-optimized ones should be the ones who move in to fight the PC power gamers while the others provide a more suitable challenge for the wallflowers. It's a bit like putting together a mixed supervillain team to fight the superhero team who has characters as different as Iron Man and Hawkeye in it.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Have you considered streaming your sessions? This way, we could provide real time feedback.

 

[5atbu]

I suggest you embrace the chaos.
Tell the party you want to run a Mad Max Tarantino Tyranny Warcraft blood saga. Make it clear that all the forces of Law, good, neutral and evil will be arrayed against them.
Plan every encounter with two levels of opposition, one for the power gamers, and a weaker one for the slow horses. If challenged just explain that the hard foes take on the hard anti-heroes.
But! They will live and die by their reputation. One word gets out, they will be fighting witchfinders, militia, paladins, devils, fascists and Angels.
There allies will be criminals, artists, anarchists, thrash metal bards, demons, and rebels of all kinds.

Just explicitly ban

• Playing on the PS4
• Watching videos
• PVP

 

[Lidgar]

Build your experience system around collaboration and role play. Deduct experience points for overtly evil acts or not participating (i.e., watching videos or whatever).