Death and the Fixing of It

[jodyjohnson]

Video Game.... well usually we don't see any video when we play so the comparison must be that easy Resurrection makes DnD too much like a game. Is that a problem? For a game to play like a game?

Sure resurrection doesn't come easy in a novel or movie. Of course authors don't have important characters die on them from random events. A well crafted work of fiction doesn't have random events.

For our group, our game runs closer to a game than a cleverly crafted story.

 

[Piratecat]

Just noodling around with the mechanics of bringing someone back. . .

I think that instead of inherently nerfing spells, I prefer the idea of allowing a rat bastardy choice with some ugly consequences. To wit, what if the Guardian of the Underworld becomes mortal one day a year. On that day, and *only* on that day, can raise dead, resurrect and true resurrect be used normally. Scrolls don't work for this purpose, unless they were scribed on a previous day of returning.

At other times during the year, bodies can be raised or resurrected but doing so is considered a grave and taboo sin in most religions. That's because bringing back the soul drags it roughly from the underworld, smashing open an opening that also allows a handful of fiends out into the real world. These creatures inevitably kill and torture, but it's an axiom that they end up destroying the life of someone that the spellcaster holds dear. No one is sure how they know, but eventually the fiends seek them out and make their existence into a dying scream of misery.

So now we have a question: do we bring our friend back now, knowing that innocents will be flayed alive for our presumptiveness? Is it THAT important?

What else does this do? Well, it means that on the major holiday many of the clerics of the world have to carefully pick and choose who they can bring back. The competition for who gets brought back provides tremendous fodder for political plots.

 

[Gort]

Agreed, Scholz.

How about this solution - No resurrection magic at all. But players can only be killed by a coup-de-grace or event that "nobody could possibly survive". (EG a whole mountain falls on someone) However, when someone is dropped past 0 hitpoints, they can't be healed back up with magic. It has to be natural healing.

And then never coup-de-grace your players unless you want them dead, or you're going to do one of the one-off adventures centering around a trip to the underworld or suchlike.

 

[spider_minion]

Check out WotC's Unearthed Arcana. UA provides an "Incantations" system which turns powerful spells like resurrection into elaborate and often dangerous rituals.

Though I've never gotten around to implementing it, I'm planning to replace the rez spells with incantations. Getting the materials for the incantation would be something of an adventure in itself, and completing it wouldn't actually bring the character back . . . instead, it would summon Death (or possibly one of his underlings) so the PCs could bargain for the departed's life. The PCs would be able to sacrifice pretty much anything (such as treasure or hit points), though what they needed to give up would be based on the dead character's level. If the party didn't interest Death with the first few offers (if, say, they weren't making any meaningful sacrifices) Death would leave with the dead guy's soul; after all, Death has better things to do. The ritual would place the PCs in an akward situtation, having to make a meaningful sacrifice but not offering too much or too little. At any rate, there wouldn't be any level loss for the character brought back.

Or they could fight Death, but that would be a bad idea.

Being brought back from death places a metaphysical mark on characters that can act as a magnet for undead, ghosts, and similar beings. They may gain abilities that help them communicate with or influence these beings, but at the price of privacy and peace.

That's a great idea. *yoink*

 

[jmucchiello]

VIDEO GAME.

What I find most annoying about this attitude toward easy res is that we've allowed instant/free access to Ressurection since around 1983. I doubt we were particularly inspired by video games at the time. We just preferred to keep things moving.

 

[Psion]

If you don't mind your campaign taking a detour, go the mythological route and treat bringing back the dead as a journey to the underworld (prime example: Orpheus and Eurydice).

Spells & Magic has an alternate raise dead spell like this. It requires the party to fight a powered up wight to retreive the character. If the spellcaster is killed, the rest of the characters are returned to the realm of the living.

Higher powers may demand payment for the favor of returning someone to life by requiring them to perform a task or live by a certain code of behavior. In effect, this is like a permanent geas that cannot be removed by mortal means, not even by wish or miracle. Only powers more potent than the one levying the geas can remove it.

I was thinking of a variant like this. When the cleric casts the ressurection spell, they travel to the spirit realm, where a representative of their deity is summoned, and the go before the guardian of the dead to plead their case. A roleplaying session ensues in which the cleric parleys for the life of the deceased. Either or both the raiser and the raisee may become indebted to either or both the guardian of the dead (not necessarily an evil entity) or the cleric's deity, which might be as simple as a geas or quest, or may even be more severe, such as requiring the character(s) to enter classes devoted to the deity or some other great service.

 

[LostSoul]

"The scales must be balanced."

One possible solution might be to have the Cleric casting the Resurrection spell make a sacrifice of a living being. This might entirely rule out the use of Res and Raise Dead spells for Good-aligned Clerics, although Neutrals and (definitely) Evils wouldn't have a problem with it.

You could go so far as to say the sacrifice must be of the same alignment and belief system as the character being brought back from the dead - to insure that the soul goes to the same outer plane location. Balacing out the equation.

I just had an image of a Cleric of St. Cuthbert holding a squealing goblin down, with her heavy cudgel in one hand, praying to her God and getting ready to bash the poor guy's brains in...

 

[Wonger]

So now we have a question: do we bring our friend back now, knowing that innocents will be flayed alive for our presumptiveness? Is it THAT important?

What else does this do? Well, it means that on the major holiday many of the clerics of the world have to carefully pick and choose who they can bring back. The competition for who gets brought back provides tremendous fodder for political plots.

But what do you do then when the party fights that beholder and someone fails the old disintegrate save? Or they battle a powerful spellcaster who has some instant-death spells? Or even a mighty fighter with improved crit feats? These sorts of enemies are fun to battle against because they have the potential to kill party members - it's exciting, but sooner or later even if the party prevails, someone is likely to get killed if the enemy fights in a dirty, merciless way that suits them. You don't want to nerf enemies, just like you don't want to nerf spells.

I like the role playing aspects of a terrible price coming with resurrection. I like the concept of a reserved holiday for raising the dead. But, if the choice is roll up a new character, bring back fiends with you, or miss the next few sessions while months pass until the holiday, I just don't think it will work.

I've struggled with this myself in my campaigns and the best we've done is that everyone loves their characters and does not throw their life away needlessly. At low levels, death was rare (and when it happened the party would wind up giving up a lot of their magical gear to pay), but at 23rd level, the types of challenges my players face inevitably lead to some deaths - I couldn't make things seem like there was risk unless the threat of death was there. But, with a 23rd level cleric in the party, True Res isn't a problem, but it is still quite expensive.

I would love to have a more literary type of death and resurection, but I just don't know how to make it work unless you are truly willing to sidetrack the entire campaign to quest for raising someone - and then, the dead player is going to be missing out...

I don't think there is an easy answer - that's why this topic comes up over and over again. But, with a group of players that care about their PC's and a decent DM, the system can work well enough without nerfing the spells or the enemies the party faces.

 

[Piratecat]

Fair enough, Wonger. So what kind of an in-game consequence can we come up with that creates cool plot consequences for "normal" raisings and resurrections?

 

[Ibram]

Even finding a magic user powerful enough to bring back the dead is a difficult task IMC (Magic is rather rare).

The spells that do bring people back are both dark and dangerous... as is fitting of a spell that reaches across the veil and tears a soul from its eternal rest. Those who come back are "different" somehow, changed by what they saw beyond the mortal world. There are ways to limit the changes... but those are among the darkest of arts.

Rules wise here are the changes...
Rase Dead is called Revitalize: when cast the caster must make a wisdom check DC 10+# of rounds the target has been dead. if the check succedes then the target returns to life, if it fails then the worng spirit has been put into the body (this could be some harmless spirit or the soul of one of your recently vanquished enemies).

Resurection is called "Unhallowed Revitrification of the Flesh": The target loses 1d4 ability points from each ability, unless a creature of at least 1/2 HD of the target is sacrificed for each ability. there is also a 20% chance - 1/2 the casters HD that the target will come back as an undead (usualy as some kind of wight).

True Resurection is called "Dark Resurection": when cast 13 creatures with at least 1/2 HD of the target must be sacrificed. the target must make a will save DC 20+number of years dead or come back insane.