Doug McCrae
Legend
You've got it backwards... the video games took their cues from D&D.Felon said:
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Death and the Fixing of It
- Thread starter Jeremy
- Start date
Wonger
First Post
Piratecat said:
I wish I knew!
In my campaigns (which I consider to be in line with the "standard D&D" amount of magic and treasure), I've wanted to make raising the dead more of a big deal than just casting a spell and forgetting about it, but not wanting to alter the spells themselves.
At lower levels, when the party has less wealth and no one able to cast powerful spells, the problem takes care of itself...kind of. Meaning, to my players, nothing is worse than losing a level! That alone is enough to make it a big deal, but does little to make death seem to be more traumatic and "literary" in game - it's more of a meta-game consequence.
Once they get access to True Res, either because they have tons of cash or a 17th level cleric, the problem gets a lot worse. Now, there is almost no consequence either "in game" or meta-game wise. However, the material component of the spell is pretty expensive...though at that level, they may gain enough loot in one adventure to cover the cost. As expensive at it is, it's still a problem that money can solve. One thing I've considered recently is making there be a finite and nearly exhausted supply of the types of gems required for True Res.
I like Malhavoc's Book of Hallowed Might idea of only allowing certain spells to be cast on hallowed ground. That makes death more of a problem and more of a big deal without forcing huge side quests that the dead PC has to sit out on. Only allowing spells to be cast on certain days though, seems to leave the dead player out of the action.
None of these observations and tweaks does much to address the "literary style death" problem. Particularly, the problem gets worse when you take the rest of the world's NPC's into account - all those kings, nobles, wizard guild officials and so on...I like to have adventures where such people have been killed and the PCs must solve the mystery or avenge the death or choose sides in the coup that follows...but then, that NPC would just be raised if you are playing in the "standard" D&D world. Any king would be stupid not to have a will with a Raise Dead scroll attached! This is one that I have had to resort to using Soul Bind if I really want to do it...and using Soul Bind against every NPC I want dead seems awful cheesy.
I've just realized I wrote this whole post with almost no further progress on the topic. Poop.
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Terwox
First Post
Eh, here's an idea that addresses both issues to one degree or another:
The issues are:
1) Raise dead makes death a non-issue (losing a level is not enough of an impact.)
2) Raise dead makes players sit out of the game for too long if it is too difficult to achieve. (Other players going to the underworld means that player is sitting still, solo gaming with the dead player means the other players are doing nothing.)
To blend, although perhaps not enough of a deterrant --
Upon being raised from the dead, characters are geased by An Entity.
Their own deity, the lord of the underworld, a demon/devil that bargains for the release of their soul, an angel that bargains for release of their soul (doesn't have to be malevolent after all,) etc.
All players can be involved in the bargaining -- make characters who hold candles/whatever for the person casting the spell/incantation be able to bargain with the summoned entity.
Effects proceed as the spell Geas/Quest.
In my dreamscape campaign, if you died in a dream, you went to a death dream (the river of death,) and gained a permanent derangement related to whatever killed you. It only happened once, but a character was permanently terrified of Fenris. Only one death in the campaign, though, but it was kinda interesting. (This was an entirely different situation, as the Lord of Death was a PC who didn't know this was the fact yet, so death was... convoluted.)
If you want more of an oomph than level loss and a geas, and still want mortality to matter, you risk making players become unattached to their characters -- although you risk them taking matters more seriously and death being a threat. It's a funny balance, I like my method, I hope you find one that suits your group.
The issues are:
1) Raise dead makes death a non-issue (losing a level is not enough of an impact.)
2) Raise dead makes players sit out of the game for too long if it is too difficult to achieve. (Other players going to the underworld means that player is sitting still, solo gaming with the dead player means the other players are doing nothing.)
To blend, although perhaps not enough of a deterrant --
Upon being raised from the dead, characters are geased by An Entity.
Their own deity, the lord of the underworld, a demon/devil that bargains for the release of their soul, an angel that bargains for release of their soul (doesn't have to be malevolent after all,) etc.
All players can be involved in the bargaining -- make characters who hold candles/whatever for the person casting the spell/incantation be able to bargain with the summoned entity.
Effects proceed as the spell Geas/Quest.
In my dreamscape campaign, if you died in a dream, you went to a death dream (the river of death,) and gained a permanent derangement related to whatever killed you. It only happened once, but a character was permanently terrified of Fenris. Only one death in the campaign, though, but it was kinda interesting. (This was an entirely different situation, as the Lord of Death was a PC who didn't know this was the fact yet, so death was... convoluted.)
If you want more of an oomph than level loss and a geas, and still want mortality to matter, you risk making players become unattached to their characters -- although you risk them taking matters more seriously and death being a threat. It's a funny balance, I like my method, I hope you find one that suits your group.
Thornir Alekeg
Albatross!
Pulling a little from the idea of maintaining balance, but not making it require killing, how about this: resurrection type spells require a donation of life force from willing participants. The amount of life force varies depending upon the spell cast and the recipient of the spell.
This is an example only - I have no idea if this would be too much or too little (probably too much, but it needs to be enough to make it difficult):
Raise Dead: requires a sacrifice equal to 20% of the recipient's XP
Resurrection: requires a sacrifice equal to 30% of the recipient's XP
True Resurrection: requires a sacrifice equal to 50% of the recipient's XP
Party members can give up XP to raise a fellow party member. Family members or other friends can be sought out who can also give up XP to bring back their loved one - this gives the DM the option to lessen the blow to the surviving party members, can create roleplaying opportunities and can give players an incentive to have backgrounds more developed than "my family was killed by orcs now I hate orcs".
Not everyone has to give equal amounts - so the dead person's level 3 Commoner sister can give up a little XP, and his 8th level Fighter party member can give much more.
The incentive to let your PC give up XP for another is that hopefully they will do the same for you one day if it is needed. A party member who is always doing something foolhardy and getting killed might eventually find that other party memebers are no longer willing to sacrifice their own life force to bring him back.
[edit] If you do this you need to have a group who is pretty mature or there may be problems if one person refuses for some reason. Player dynamics could get messy in the wrong group.
This is an example only - I have no idea if this would be too much or too little (probably too much, but it needs to be enough to make it difficult):
Raise Dead: requires a sacrifice equal to 20% of the recipient's XP
Resurrection: requires a sacrifice equal to 30% of the recipient's XP
True Resurrection: requires a sacrifice equal to 50% of the recipient's XP
Party members can give up XP to raise a fellow party member. Family members or other friends can be sought out who can also give up XP to bring back their loved one - this gives the DM the option to lessen the blow to the surviving party members, can create roleplaying opportunities and can give players an incentive to have backgrounds more developed than "my family was killed by orcs now I hate orcs".
Not everyone has to give equal amounts - so the dead person's level 3 Commoner sister can give up a little XP, and his 8th level Fighter party member can give much more.
The incentive to let your PC give up XP for another is that hopefully they will do the same for you one day if it is needed. A party member who is always doing something foolhardy and getting killed might eventually find that other party memebers are no longer willing to sacrifice their own life force to bring him back.
[edit] If you do this you need to have a group who is pretty mature or there may be problems if one person refuses for some reason. Player dynamics could get messy in the wrong group.
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I too had heart ache with the raise dead and resurrections. After all whats the point in having asassins if the dead keep coming back? So I banned the spells. Then came a sequence of TPKs and near TPKs at higher levels. My players were understandably perturbed by the ease with which characters could be wiped out by magic with only a save.
Our compromise was that magic caused an "unnatural" death, and thus only those persons directly killed by magic could be brought back. This kept daggers in the night viable, but eased the devastation of many higher level encounters. All of this was in 1st ed days, and has worked well ever since.
Our compromise was that magic caused an "unnatural" death, and thus only those persons directly killed by magic could be brought back. This kept daggers in the night viable, but eased the devastation of many higher level encounters. All of this was in 1st ed days, and has worked well ever since.
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RodneyThompson
First Post
Man, great thread. Lots of awesome ideas.
I'm currently running the Shackled City adventure path from Dungeon, which I'm sure many of you know can potentially be quite lethal. I'm trying to run it as a standard D&D campaign but I've never like the raise dead/resurrection spells. So, I've made it a little more difficult to be brought back from the dead.
Only high priests of Mormekar, the god of the dead, can bring people back from the other side through magic. Mormekar, as you may recognize, is from Green Ronin's excellent Book of the Righteous. In order to do so, they must perform a complex incantation (Unearthed Arcana) in order to bring that person back from the dead. If successful, the resurrected person is marked in such a way (not physically, more like his aura is marked) that all priests of Mormekar can tell if that person has been resurrected. Additionally, I have placed the City of Manifest in my campaign setting, and should any of the party die I am going to give them the option of playing a ghost (the Ghostwalk campaign rules). I think it's a fair balance, and since the church of Mormekar is pretty unfriendly toward the party I anticipate the ghost option being favored.
I'm currently running the Shackled City adventure path from Dungeon, which I'm sure many of you know can potentially be quite lethal. I'm trying to run it as a standard D&D campaign but I've never like the raise dead/resurrection spells. So, I've made it a little more difficult to be brought back from the dead.
Only high priests of Mormekar, the god of the dead, can bring people back from the other side through magic. Mormekar, as you may recognize, is from Green Ronin's excellent Book of the Righteous. In order to do so, they must perform a complex incantation (Unearthed Arcana) in order to bring that person back from the dead. If successful, the resurrected person is marked in such a way (not physically, more like his aura is marked) that all priests of Mormekar can tell if that person has been resurrected. Additionally, I have placed the City of Manifest in my campaign setting, and should any of the party die I am going to give them the option of playing a ghost (the Ghostwalk campaign rules). I think it's a fair balance, and since the church of Mormekar is pretty unfriendly toward the party I anticipate the ghost option being favored.
Doug McCrae
Legend
Resource depletion.adwyn said:
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Altamont Ravenard
Explorer
For insta-death spells, a nice house-rule I've seen is you don't die the moment you fail your save, but your hp drop at the negative amount by which you failed your save (ie if you fail your save by 4, you drop at -4 hp and are dying). If the character reaches -10, then the spell actually takes its effect (the character is disintegrated, or dead, etc.)
For death by damage, you could rule that a character only drops to -9, whatever the damage that was done. You still have one round to help the character out, or he's dead.
AR
For death by damage, you could rule that a character only drops to -9, whatever the damage that was done. You still have one round to help the character out, or he's dead.
AR
Whimsical
Explorer
Similar to what was posted before, death spells could take you to 0-the spell level HP and you are bleeding. You also get a negative level.
The Conan book has rules for "left for dead", as an option since there was no ressurection magic in the campaign. Could someone post or summarize them?
The Conan book has rules for "left for dead", as an option since there was no ressurection magic in the campaign. Could someone post or summarize them?
Wonger
First Post
Just remembered something I'm going to try in my next campaign...
When someone dies, their soul drifts in the ocean of the astral on its way to whatever plane. Boatmen (like the river Styx boatmen) troll these waters. They will ferry souls to the afterlife, but for a price, they will ferry your soul back to the prime and life.
This provides the dead character a chance to roleplay an encounter with the Boatmen. The Boatman may want a level, some permanant ability score drain, a geas/quest, whatever the DM deems appropriate. If they died in a frantic battle and wish to return immediately to aid their comrades, the price may be steep indeed.
This gives more options than the Raise Dead/Resurrection route. It lets the dead character still participate in the session. It lets the DM set whatever he deems to be an appropriate price for coming back. It also makes death a more memorable and role-playing related event rather than a "I'm at -10 hit points" event.
However, I'm not sure how I'll work it in... Does this opportunity happen every time someone dies? If so, no one in the campaign world would ever die, not even the farmer kicked by a horse, and certainly not villains. Maybe this only happens to people of influence and power...and then only randomly? Still some questions to answer...
When someone dies, their soul drifts in the ocean of the astral on its way to whatever plane. Boatmen (like the river Styx boatmen) troll these waters. They will ferry souls to the afterlife, but for a price, they will ferry your soul back to the prime and life.
This provides the dead character a chance to roleplay an encounter with the Boatmen. The Boatman may want a level, some permanant ability score drain, a geas/quest, whatever the DM deems appropriate. If they died in a frantic battle and wish to return immediately to aid their comrades, the price may be steep indeed.
This gives more options than the Raise Dead/Resurrection route. It lets the dead character still participate in the session. It lets the DM set whatever he deems to be an appropriate price for coming back. It also makes death a more memorable and role-playing related event rather than a "I'm at -10 hit points" event.
However, I'm not sure how I'll work it in... Does this opportunity happen every time someone dies? If so, no one in the campaign world would ever die, not even the farmer kicked by a horse, and certainly not villains. Maybe this only happens to people of influence and power...and then only randomly? Still some questions to answer...
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