Death Wight: The Return of Level Drain


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I personally wouldn't handle level drain in this manner, since I like to keep PC levels equal to each other for simplicity.

What I might do is to make level drain a permanent effect that can only be cured with Remove Affliction and similar rituals.

Lesser Level Drain would impose a -1 penalty to all defenses, attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks.

Greater Level Drain would impose a -2 penalty to all defenses, attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks, and cause the PC to lose his highest-level power.

Alternatively, level drain could be treated like a disease, with various intermediate stages, and giving the affected PC a chance to maintain or improve the condition with Endurance checks, and only settling into the final, permanent form (which can still be cured with Remove Affliction) if the checks are failed.
 

It reintroduces the concept of level draining to 4e. One new way to scare the crap out of your players.

I really don't think that a level drain mechanic that physically delevels a PC has any place in 4e.

1: The players won't like it (or should I say they probably won't like it), and there is a good chance the PCs will end up with differing amounts of XP which isn't really in teh spirit or balance of the system.

2: I think the DM will regret it as it has the chance of unbalancing the rest of the encounters he has planned. With this system it is possible for a PC to lose more than 1 level (and this is only a level 4 creature!).

Imagine if you had planned a nice tough encounter (say level +3) as the finale to this side quest. Now imagine if your group has a couple of members at level -1 and another at level -2, you are now looking at a much more difficult encounter, what are you going to do?

If your answer is that you will adjust the encounter, making it more in line with the PCs average level then you have just shown how misguided the level drain mechanic is.

Its a nice idea, but their has got to be a better way of implementing it.
 

Don't get me wrong...by posting this, I'm not saying that Level Draining like this should be put back into 4e. However, I'm doing it to illustrate that it theoretically is possible to do so, and without too much difficulty.

Using the Disease Track is a good idea, although I think that Remove Affliction is too easily used (largely due to the math of Aid Another). Not once did any of my players seem the slightest bit concerned about aquiring a disease, and they didn't even think twice about pulling out the ritual and using it. It was at best, a speed bump.
 

I really don't think that a level drain mechanic that physically delevels a PC has any place in 4e.
I dont thing it even had a place in 3/3.5. I was delighted that they scrapped the idea for 4e (and rather pleased with the replacement mechanics. Loose a HS raises an eyebrow, but doesnt make people leave the game...), and the thought that someone even considered it for 4e just sounds ill-conceived.

What was the source of this. Did someone just put it together in the monster builder(if so, to the author : pretty poor judgement IMHO) or is it official. If its official, then to WOTC : "Dont let juniors do core design!"

Either way, there is no way known I would put any creature in my game that would permanently damage or diminish a player character. To me its a gross and unjustifiable violation of Rule 0, and I think every DM should really think twice before including.
 

Well obviously most of the people in this forum are going to disagree with you OP. Don't let it stop you if this is what you want to do at your table. You are brave for posting something like this on such a serious forum ;).

In some campaigns (especially horror campaigns) the heroes should not be completely fantastical, but should feel genuinely afraid of what the world can do to them. Level drain mechanics, lycanthropy, mummy rot, all have the ability to do this. I remember the 3e Ravenloft supplement talking about how 'unlike regular DnD, curing lycanthropy in Ravenloft is almost impossible'.

My own two cents: I would never introduce a permanent level drain mechanic in my campaigns. At worst I would impose 'negative levels' similar to diseases that might only be curable with a specific ritual or with the aid of some special herbs etc. Permanently devaluing a PC makes the player want to die and rebuild. This is doubly true in 4e where parties are intended to be all the same level and all roughly equal in power. Heck, I don't even track experience these days, the party levels up when I say they do, and always all at once. Being party level -1 really stinks.
 

Well obviously most of the people in this forum are going to disagree with you OP. Don't let it stop you if this is what you want to do at your table. You are brave for posting something like this on such a serious forum ;).

I certainly feel like some people are thinking I kill babies or something. Perhaps I should have used a different example on how to scare the players. One of my beefs with 4e is that there is no 'fear' in D&D anymore. The non-swingyness of the combat (a subject for another blog post), plus how difficult it is for a PC to die...and then the lack of any significant consequences if they do, just makes combat less threatening.

I liked it when every so often the PCs would say "Oh crap...we are SO in trouble". For me as a player waaaaaaaaaaay back when, Wights were one of those monsters that would incite a reaction like that.

This was definitely a 'if you want to try this, this is something that you can use'.

I have gotten some good feedback though, and will be posting a revised version. I think that the mere fact that one can aquire failed Death Saves while concious might be good enough, in addition to the healing surge loss.

In some campaigns (especially horror campaigns) the heroes should not be completely fantastical, but should feel genuinely afraid of what the world can do to them. Level drain mechanics, lycanthropy, mummy rot, all have the ability to do this. I remember the 3e Ravenloft supplement talking about how 'unlike regular DnD, curing lycanthropy in Ravenloft is almost impossible'.
Well, the Disease mechanic (actually more with how easy it is to cure them) is another sore spot of mine.

My own two cents: I would never introduce a permanent level drain mechanic in my campaigns. At worst I would impose 'negative levels' similar to diseases that might only be curable with a specific ritual or with the aid of some special herbs etc. Permanently devaluing a PC makes the player want to die and rebuild. This is doubly true in 4e where parties are intended to be all the same level and all roughly equal in power. Heck, I don't even track experience these days, the party levels up when I say they do, and always all at once. Being party level -1 really stinks.
I hear you. That said, one of the other points in the blog post was that you needed to add a Ritual akin to Restoration. It's ironic to me that the vast majority of players would rather die and start a new character than lose a single level. There's some interesting psychology there I think. B-)

Remember, there is only a 1/8 chance out of any successful hit actually causing a level drain, and that any controller worth their salt should have the ability to immobilize one of these monsters. That means that perhaps a monster like this should be of higher level, so as to have the controller PC more likely to have something that can lock it down.

The whole point is the _threat_ of level drain. But even if it should occur, there is that Restoration ritual (or heck, you could just use Remove Affliction too). No level drain is permanent.

I'm kinda thinking that some people reading this and seeing the words Energy Drain suddenly just see red and start frothing at the mouth without actually reading the entire post. :(
 
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I'm kinda thinking that some people reading this and seeing the words Energy Drain suddenly just see red and start frothing at the mouth without actually reading the entire post. :(
Gotta correct you on that, I had read the entire post, and I was still frothing at the mouth and seeing red. For me personally I have seen the effect level drain has on a group. I have seen players charge out of the room in flat out disgust never to be seen again! I have seen players quite ingobaly run from battle and let their friends cop it on their behalf. I have seen the feuds and disatisfaction with the game in general.

Rule 0 is "Have Fun". Level drain isnt fun, and THAT is why I see red. As a DM I consider it my job to make the game fun for all involved, and no-one has fun when you do this to them. When my players dont have fun, I dont have fun.

I do however acknowledge Eric's the point with regards to tension factor and nature of the game. If you were playing Ravenloft (or another horror theme), permanent damage is part of the scare factor, but I would also say that perhaps 4e isnt the system I would play for such a campaign.
 


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