ArcaneSpringboard
First Post
And it took six months of weekly gaming to gain a level. And we LIKED it! 
Death Wight: The Return of Level Drain
- Thread starter ArcaneSpringboard
- Start date
eriktheguy
First Post
Reskin 'level drain' as a disease.
Change some diseases so that they cannot be recovered without a ritual (i.e. when you reach the 'cured' state, assign some penalty to that state and the players stop making endurance checks. They remain in that state until a ritual is used similar to being in the worst state of a disease).
A simple example would be a level drain condition with 3 stages. You make checks at the worst (-1 to attacks/checks, lose highest level skill) stage. You make checks at the second worst (-1 to checks, lose highest level skill) and you stop making checks at the recovered stage (lose highest level skill). Now you just need a ritual to get rid of that effect.
Change some diseases so that they cannot be recovered without a ritual (i.e. when you reach the 'cured' state, assign some penalty to that state and the players stop making endurance checks. They remain in that state until a ritual is used similar to being in the worst state of a disease).
A simple example would be a level drain condition with 3 stages. You make checks at the worst (-1 to attacks/checks, lose highest level skill) stage. You make checks at the second worst (-1 to checks, lose highest level skill) and you stop making checks at the recovered stage (lose highest level skill). Now you just need a ritual to get rid of that effect.
ArcaneSpringboard
First Post
I think you're right and that's the way to go.
That said...
PCs actually make Endurance checks to fight diseases? My players just go straight for the Cure Disease ritual.
That said...
PCs actually make Endurance checks to fight diseases?
My players just go straight for the Cure Disease ritual.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
I agree with the majority here regarding the 'fun' factor in level draining PCs, and I disagree with some of the base assumptions by the OP.
I don't quite follow this. There were reasons to get the mechanic out of the game {irritated players, difficulty adjusting characters, balancing the remaining encounters, etc..}... yet no reason to not put the mechanic back in? I mean.. sure, we can put a level draining mechanic back in pretty easily and have all those problems again, but you will have to pitch me a very good reason why before I use this in a game.
I enjoyed using this beast in combat, each surge it stole I released as a Keening Spirit {lvl 14 minion}
I think this mechanic on its own made the players sit up and take notice..even tho I was only able to immobilize 2 PCs in a group of 8.
But that does point out how overpowered the 4th level DeathWight's powers are.
Linked Article said:
I don't quite follow this. There were reasons to get the mechanic out of the game {irritated players, difficulty adjusting characters, balancing the remaining encounters, etc..}... yet no reason to not put the mechanic back in? I mean.. sure, we can put a level draining mechanic back in pretty easily and have all those problems again, but you will have to pitch me a very good reason why before I use this in a game.
Side note, WoTC: Oni Soulcatcher, level 11 controller, minor action consume essense targets an immobilized character and deals 1D8+4 and takes a healing surge.
I enjoyed using this beast in combat, each surge it stole I released as a Keening Spirit {lvl 14 minion}
I think this mechanic on its own made the players sit up and take notice..even tho I was only able to immobilize 2 PCs in a group of 8.
But that does point out how overpowered the 4th level DeathWight's powers are.
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Infiniti2000
First Post
I really dislike level drain for multiple reasons, most of which have been stated above. One other reason not stated is that it consumes so much OOC time and I hate that.
However, an additional point I hate about your monster design, yes hate, is that the fearsome power is a frakkin basic at-will attack! Couple that with SOLDIER and it's simply a very poorly designed monster. At least don't make it a soldier and make it limited use, rechargeable at 5-6 if not simply an encounter power.
However, an additional point I hate about your monster design, yes hate, is that the fearsome power is a frakkin basic at-will attack! Couple that with SOLDIER and it's simply a very poorly designed monster. At least don't make it a soldier and make it limited use, rechargeable at 5-6 if not simply an encounter power.
Tequila Sunrise
Adventurer
I hope you're either being sarcastic, or plan to ask this same question of your players before you spring level drain on them.
LostSoul
Adventurer
I think the main question is: How does it interact with the rest of the game? Two things jump to mind:
Raise Dead & starting level of new PCs
Players choice in which encounters they will face
I'm sure there are others.
I don't think level drain is a bad idea in itself, though. Like everything, you'll want to let the players know what's what - unless you're really hardcore and let them learn by experience (a Roguelike tabletop game!).
Raise Dead & starting level of new PCs
Players choice in which encounters they will face
I'm sure there are others.
I don't think level drain is a bad idea in itself, though. Like everything, you'll want to let the players know what's what - unless you're really hardcore and let them learn by experience (a Roguelike tabletop game!).
Zinovia
Explorer
If you do introduce level draining creatures, the power needs to be a recharge or encounter power, on a non-soldier creature. Make it easier to take them out of the picture. It also needs to be much higher than level 4 - say paragon tier minimum.
I dislike level drain as a mechanic and always have, regardless of system. I think life draining undead are better represented through other types of attacks. Surge drain works well in 4E, or ongoing damage, or penalties to attacks and skills until they are cured of their soul-drained "disease". Why drain experience? How does this attack diminish what you know and can do? It might make you weaker, or more frail and easier to take out, but you still know your spells and how to swing a sword just as effectively.
Level drain robs PC's of abilities they have worked to achieve. It's awkward to figure out mechanically in many of its implementations, and is extremely frustrating to players. It's not fun. Games should be fun. Being in fear for their characters' lives can be fun for the players, so I'm not saying go easy on them. Clobber them up one side and down the other, but don't take away from who their character is.
The Oni Soulcatcher sounds entertaining and scary at the same time. That's the kind of thing I'd rather run.
I dislike level drain as a mechanic and always have, regardless of system. I think life draining undead are better represented through other types of attacks. Surge drain works well in 4E, or ongoing damage, or penalties to attacks and skills until they are cured of their soul-drained "disease". Why drain experience? How does this attack diminish what you know and can do? It might make you weaker, or more frail and easier to take out, but you still know your spells and how to swing a sword just as effectively.
Level drain robs PC's of abilities they have worked to achieve. It's awkward to figure out mechanically in many of its implementations, and is extremely frustrating to players. It's not fun. Games should be fun. Being in fear for their characters' lives can be fun for the players, so I'm not saying go easy on them. Clobber them up one side and down the other, but don't take away from who their character is.
The Oni Soulcatcher sounds entertaining and scary at the same time. That's the kind of thing I'd rather run.
Rachel
First Post
I certainly feel like some people are thinking I kill babies or something. Perhaps I should have used a different example on how to scare the players. One of my beefs with 4e is that there is no 'fear' in D&D anymore. The non-swingyness of the combat (a subject for another blog post), plus how difficult it is for a PC to die...and then the lack of any significant consequences if they do, just makes combat less threatening.
More fear? This: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/272581-optional-rule-deathblow.html
Have fun!
