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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8859021" data-attributes="member: 6801228">And? What, because it is a range you are right about your range of "consider everything all the time, assume it is all balanced, and therefore nothing needs to be improved" but my range of "we should be able to hit close to these benchmarks" is wrong? All you are doing is asserting "because barbarian's can rage, clerical healing is balanced" and other such nonsense, meanwhile I'm showing that one action (not one attack) from a monster of equal CR to character level (CR being the challenge rating for "a group of 4 of this level should be able to defeat this monster relatively easily) generally does enough average damage (a range) that a single action from a cleric cannot provide enough average healing (a range) to counter-act. I have data. You have assertions that you are the most correct ever.  Can you... disprove it? I've provided evidence backing up the claim, showing how actual healing abilities interact with the damage of monsters. You say it is false because rogues can sneak attack and kill enemies, and that should be counted as healing. You have asserted that the game is balanced so that healing abilities are balanced via party resources, damage dealing, and damage mitigation. So, a party of 4 high-level fighters with Second Wind should be equivalent to a party of 4 high-level clerics with Heal. That is your claim. If you think that is ridiculous, perhaps you have either so poorly presented your claim that you should revisit it, or you should begin to realize your claim has deep flaws. Fighters can absolutely fall behind in damage output, even compared to clerics. Because while the claim is that "fighters can go all day" the truth is they cannot. They are limited by their HP, and to get enough fights per day to balance out the use of spells often takes a huge number of fights. Heck, let's run the numbers real fast. I was using 11th level characters. Everything is balanced against everything, as per your claim. To reach 3d8+2d8+wis+4d8+wis the cleric needs to cast Spirit Guardians as 3rd and Spiritual Weapon at 4th, then using a weapon cantrip like booming blade. They can do this for three fights, three rounds per fight. I know there is a 1 round delay here, but we're just getting some baseline numbers to start with. That would be (9d8+6) x 3 rounds or 139.5 x 3 combats or a total of 418.5 average damage. This is rough, spirit guardians is a save for half and an AOE after all, but hey, this gets us in the ballpark. So, a fighter with 20's in stats, sword and board, would get 3d8+21 x 3 rounds or 103.5 per fight. Which means the fighter needs a 4th fight to catch up. But, oops, the Cleric is in that 4th fight too, and they still have 2nd level slots and can deal 5d8+6 per round for another three fights. Which is another 256.5 damage, so over 6 fights I've got 675. Fighter after 6 fights is still half a fight behind. So we'd need to go into a 7th fight. Of course, the cleric still has two 5th level slots... And yes, I'm discounting that first round of cleric spellcasting for those first three combats, I'm also assuming that you are using an AOE to hit a single target. I'm discounting accuracy, but I'm also discounting save for half and the rider on the weapon cantrip. And remember, HP is the resource for how long the fight can go. The fighter may start with slightly more (+1 from the cleric before accounting for Con mod) but they heal much less. 16.5 every two fights, compared to the Cleric getting back 70. Which means you need FOUR second winds, which if we assume a short rest every two fights means you need 8 fights for the Fighter to heal as much as the cleric can in a single go. So, again, I'm not sure that these things are really balanced like you seem to think they are. Right, I'm the one who doesn't understand.</blockquote>

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