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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 8859103" data-attributes="member: 23751">They have the numbers.  You don't.  You just have feelings that something is off, and feelings aren't a reason to change things.Right. One(mine) actually deals with balance. The other(yours) is a white room isolated comparison that does not. Your minor healing spell is not intended to counteract what you are comparing it to. If it was, it would.Data when used incorrectly isn't anything at all.  Basically you have a poll and are spinning the numbers to suit your desires, but WotC has the actual play balance to consider, not your feelings on the matter.You haven't provided a shred of evidence that there is anything wrong with balance.  You've taken two isolated things and compared them in a white room and declared that something is ubalanced based on a white room situation that doesn't deal with entire party vs. adventuring day balance.Um, no. That was entirely you.  I never, ever made that claim.  If you wanted to actually get my claim correct(and you don't), you would have compared all of the abilities available to one 11th level group to another, and not deliberately twisted what I said compared a 1st level ability to a 6th level ability in a white room again and declared it to be what I am saying.I think your deliberate Strawman is ridiculous, too.  We are in agreement!Clerics don't have all of their spells for combat.  A group of 4 clerics will need use a good percentage of them for utility during the adventuring day, cratering their ability to dish out damage in combat. Again, you are white rooming things by incorrectly declaring that clerics will have all of their spells to use in battle.And if they do so, they're gimping themselves in utility outside of combat and will suffer for it.  AND they have zeroed out their 3rd and 4th level slots in 3 out of 6-8 encounters for that adventuring day.  Now they have 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd,  2 5th and 1 6th to divide up over 3-5 more encounters AND all utility for the day.You also can't use Booming Blade unless fighters can use feats. All books outside of core are also optional and can't be assumed to be in play.They're going to get 3-5 more, so...So you ARE white rooming this into a situation that will never occur in actual game play and assuming that clerics only ever cast spells in combat.Now try down 1/3 to half your spells AND having to heal yourselves with at least some of those slots instead of using all your slots for offense.  You know, like actually happens in real world game play and not fake white room situations where spellcasters have 100% of their slots for utility and 100% of their slots for combat in order to show how they are better than squares both in and out of combat.Wait! You've used up every 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spell on offense, then said you have 2 5th and a 6th for the last fight.  Where are you getting this mythical clerical healing from?  They have no slots to use any.  You have spare the dying to stabilize the clerics that go unconscious and that's it.Unless of course you want to take back a considerable amount of damage output so that you can actually heal and a considerable amount more for the utility you need to use out of combat in an adventuring day, in which case fighters action surge past you. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Since you think that clerics have 100% of their spells for combat, 100% for healing, and 100% for utility, you clearly don't.I'm also, given how you have twisted my claims and how you've used more than 100% of clerical spell slots, not going to trust your numbers as to how much fighters can dish out per fight.</blockquote>

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