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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8860168" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I don't have numbers? Where did all my numbers come from then? I mean, sure, I felt something was off. Then I looked at the numbers. Then I checked with other people and sought other opinions, then I looked at the numbers AGAIN... I mean, I'm no paid researcher, but I really think declaring I'm basing everything off feelings when I'm showing my work is pretty lazy for a counter-argument. Especially for someone who hasn't done more than just shout I'm wrong without backing it up.So, would your claim be that Wizards has NEVER overvalued something and NEVER made a mistake? I certainly would never make that claim, there is after all a trivially easy thing to point to that shows that they DO overestimate, and reams and reams of things to point towards that show that they make mistakes. And yours doesn't deal with actual balance, yours deals with the feeling that WoTC totally got it right the first time, despite any evidence to the contrary.And you still aren't doing anything to disprove me, just shouting that I'm using my feelings, despite all the facts I keep using. Getting kind of sad.And you keep asserting that I need to consider the entire party... but refuse to acknowledge that you can't predict an entire party. You are demanding the impossible, then asserting that Wizards must have done it right the first time, because... reasons! White Rooms! Feelings! You want to prove yourself correct? Then you need to show your work, not just insist my work is bad because I'm only looking at healing abilities vs damage.I am comparing the majority of the abilities together. Damage, spells, hp, AC, class abilities. Sure, I haven't listed every single thing in a 20 page report, but I certainly have done more than compare a scaling healing to a 6th level spell. Which I did because you claimed that the damage mitigation abilities of ANY two parties would be the same. Fighters get heavy armor, so do clerics, fighter damage, cleric damage, fighter ability to restore hp, cleric ability to restore hp. What more should I list for you to demonstrate that the fighter has less damage mitigation?Why would they need to use them during the adventuring day? Is the DM forcing them to use spells against their will? After all, it isn't like clerics have a massive amount of utility that they are required to use. And if the Clerics absolutely MUST use their spells to overcome the utility challenges of the adventuring day... aren't the fighter's just stuck and unable to progress? I mean, they get zero spells for utility. And if they are facing the same challenges... then the clerics don't need their spells for utility.Yes, you have accurately noted the usage of resources. Good job. Now tell me why I should care about this theoretical utility that you are making up? Especially since they still have many spell slots.Why not? I told you that was exactly what I was going to do. Didn't you read my post? I literally stated this "Because if you take the correct combination of abilities, the clerics can deal 3d8+2d8+wis+4d8+wis every round for a fight, while still having the Heal spells, so is that really balanced against 4 fighters with no feats? " And your response was the following. I asked "Is that really balanced" and you said "Yes". You said it was balanced. Now suddenly, after I demonstrate the reality of that, you claim that it is unfair to not give the fighter's feats, and I can't use non-PHB materials and and and.... funny how quickly "Yes!" turned into "Wait, no, you can't do that." Maybe you should have either read a bit more closely, or considered your answer more.You said Fighter's cannot fall behind in damage. I'm demonstrating that is false. You also keep harping on about this utility that I am required to spend spells on, but again, what utility am I required to use spells on? Demonstrate how I am required to spend half of Team Cleric's spells on utility spells, while Team Fighter can solve these same challenges without spells. You can't just assert yourself to be correct, you have to provide evidence.I have the 6th level slots. You know, the four 6th level slots that a team of four clerics would have is they had 6th level slots left? That's where that 70 came from. I compared the cleric's casting Heal, like I said, and having four of them becuase they are a team of clerics, like I said, against the Fighter's getting to use second wind.... like I said. You are really making me question if you understood the premise.What are you talking about? Do I need to take back that congratulations I gave before for accurately counting resources? Team Cleric has each cleric start with 4 first level spells, 3 second level, 3 third level, 3 fourth level, 2 fifth level, and 1 sixth level.If they cast Spiritual Weapon at 4th and Spirit Guardians at 3rd, three times each, then they have 4 first level spells, 3 second level, 0 third level, 0 fourth level, 2 fifth level, and 1 sixth level spell.Then, if they cast Spiritual Weapon three times at 2nd, then they have 4 first level spells, 0 second level, 0 third level, 0 fourth level, 2 fifth level, and 1 sixth level spell.Then, if they cast Heal as a 6th level, each member has 4 first level spells, 0 second level, 0 third level, 0 fourth level, 2 fifth level, and 0 sixth level spells.So... I haven't even used 100% of their spells, let alone 300% of them. And, I used the one spell on healing to demonstrate that the Heal Spell once is more healing than the fighter over the adventuring day, unless you get three short rests. I think your feelings are the ones that are suspect, since you are just ranting about me using 100% of the spells for healing (one spell) and 100% of the spells for utility (still not demonstrated) when that is clearly not what I demonstrated.</blockquote>

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