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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8861357" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Why would they have secret balance numbers instead of the numbers out in the open in the books? They've flat told us what they expect for the damage of a monster based on its CR, and we can trivially see the player information. There is nothing hidden here, so you don't need "secret balance numbers" at all. This is just a blatant attempt to pretend like I have nothing but feelings, while ignoring the numbers I've been using. So, how big of a range? What kind of factors go into this range that you clearly have access to and knowledge of? Can you provide evidence instead of just making assertions as though they were facts. What abilities? I've talked HP, mitigation, Healing, AC, Damage... again, instead of just saying that I'm only looking at "one piece" why don't you actually tell me what you think I'm missing. Because right now, I've covered the VAST majority of the things that could possibly be factors, but you keep saying that I'm only looking at one thing and ignoring everything else. And since you aren't giving any example, I'm left wondering if this is just theater because you don't have an actual point to argue against me with. Ad Hominen's won't help you. Especially for such a weak position. So, here is an interesting point. The Fighters are going to lag... as in they can't solve the challenges. So, are you imagining that these two teams are facing two different sets of challenges, to force the clerics to use spells while also allowing Fighters to actually progress through the day? And, what are they going to use? Which Utility spells are these clerics using? "Some of them?" That isn't an answer. It is just yet another vague assertion. I'm not going to recant my assertions just because you make vague unsubstantiated claims. Wrong. Four 1st, two 5th and one 6th. Why do you keep having so much trouble keeping track of this? It really shows a lack of care that I have had to constantly correct you on what I've been saying. In order. Yes I did.No I didn't use more slots than clerics have.No, I've only used a single slot from each character for healing.No, I haven't been ignoring utility. I've been asking you what utility they are being required to use. You have refused to answer and instead insisted I don't play DnD.You are correct, 1+1 = 2. And 4+3+3+3+2+1-3-3-3 = 7 Again, I've never used more slots than were had. You just seem to have a hard time counting, which is why I explained it below. You'd think that would have you take back this part of your post where you just demonstrate your inability to follow along. I never made that assertion. I never followed the damage into the 7th fight, simply noting that by the time they reach the 7th fight they still have two 5th level spell slots, if we wanted to continue,. I never did the 8th fight, beyond noting that it would take until the 8th fight for the Fighter to have as much healing. I figured demonstrating they were behind on damage for 6 fights out of the day was sufficient. Despite my asking for clarification on what utility you think a cleric will be using in this scenario, you have never once stated any. I am not protesting the use of utility spells, I'm asking what scenarios do you think that Team Fighter could solve without spells, that Team Cleric would be forced to use spells to solve. Since we have reached the end of your post, and you never answered this, allow me to posit something. You claimed that every party was balanced, against every party, by looking at all party resources. You claim this to be true, despite any build differences. Now then, are you aware that some people want to play blasters? That a cleric might load up on damage and healing spells, and not prepare any utility spells? Are you also aware that I have only stated three leveled spells (Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, Heal) and that the cleric can prepare approximately 14 spells at 11th level, meaning there are 11 other spells they could prepare... which could be ritual spells that do not require a spell slot? Are you also aware that clerics can have more than one cantrip, and since I have only used a cantrip that would not come from the class that there are a potential 5 cantrips that could be referenced that I have not considered yet. Additionally, clerics have skills, and skills could have utility uses, it is sort of their entire thing. So, beyond not all players wanting to play a utility character, we have ritual utility spells, and cantrips, and skills... all of which can cover any challenge that we can assume fighter's can cover with skills, since this cleric group has FAR more options than the fighters for utility. Which is strange, since that is while playing damage dealers that could potentially out-damage the fighters. And having comparable Hp, and the same AC. Would they? Can you demonstrate this, or is this just another instance of "trust me, I'm right"? Because it seems to completely ignore those Hit Dice. I didn't mention them, but that's because I was accounting for class resources, and both groups were taking short rests, and therefore getting Hit Dice usage. I didn't think I needed to state them, because they would be obvious. Of course, now that I have been show repeatedly you can't count spell slots, I'm really far less certain. No. I excluded feats for the Fighters specifically. You claimed, again, that parties were balanced based on resources at the party level. That two disparate parties with completely different abilities and resources and builds are in fact balanced against each other. The Fighter's all took ASI's and have much higher stats, as demonstrated in the numbers. Or, are you going to claim that ASIs are not balanced vs feats? Funny, since again, when I asked the question:"Because if you take the correct combination of abilities, the clerics can deal 3d8+2d8+wis+4d8+wis every round for a fight, while still having the Heal spells, so is that really balanced against 4 fighters with no feats? "You said "Yes". So, were you wrong before, or did you just not understand the question. Again.</blockquote>

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