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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8862332" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Where do you think the DMG guidelines for designing things for 5e CAME from? Do you think they designed stuff, had a formula that was balanced, then gave DMs a DIFFERENT formula for designing stuff? That isn't incompetent, that is flat-out malicious.AKA, I have no idea, yet I am asserting it as an undeniable fact but cannot even give you any guidance on what I am saying means.Clerics and fighters don't have fast movement or portent. I'm not considering any save or suck spells either. Now, Action Surge I did not calculate in. It is possible that could push the damage up before the 6th fight. I'm not sure exactly how one extra round of combat would work out, but it could be half a combat by fight number 6. I hadn't considered short rests when I was at that initial point, and I didn't go back to cover it after I talked about short rests, figuring we could cover it later. And yet.. I've been struggling even to get you to understand the spell usage, so I never went back to Action Surge. Also, do you realize that if I can't look at a spell and figure if it is underpowered, no one can look at a spell and determine if it is OVERpowered either, right? Any time you've looked at something and said it is too powerful, you've done exactly what I'm doing here. And I know you have discussed balance before, without taking this stance of it being impossible to determine balance.Lag how? What is going on outside of the combat pillar that they will lag in doing in this example? If they are able to proceed while lagging, then there is no reason to assume the cleric's can't as well.Of course I know what spells they get, but that isn't the point. Sure, They get Water Breathing, do you need water breathing in a dungeon crawl? The answer is "sometimes" but they can also swim for 2 to 3 minutes, meaning that you'd need them to have to cover over 600 ft of distance for that to even be a concern. Augury? Augury is nice, but not nessecary. Not casting Augury is just not asking the DM if you are about to make a bad decision. Or maybe Purify Food and Drink, setting aside that they have the 1st level slots to do so, they are also seemingly in a dungeon crawl, and so that is far less likely to be needed. What you seem to be doing is conflating the fact that they HAVE utility spells with this idea that they are REQUIRED to use them. Which is false. Just because they have access to those spells, does not mean they are required to utilize them in any given day.No I did not.No I would not, because you haven't established any need for utility.No, most fights do not see that. If you are dropping people to 0 hp every single fight, you have warped things. If you would like to prove that you aren't, provide evidence, not just empty assertions.Who says? They might do very well against a level 11 encounter. Or maybe in fight number 7 they do decide to use them, but either way I didn't cover fight number 7, so your accusations are still false.Really? How do you know the Champion is the weakest? You have to account for all resources of the party, and the range of balance, so how are you determining the champion is underpowered? And I did not arbitrarily announce the damage, I went sword and board, to mirror the cleric having a shield for matching AC. one-handed martial weapons are 1d8, which is where my numbers came from.Why? Did they all sign a compact declaring they will use utility spells even if not neccessary so that Maxperson's claims of balance would be true? You keep asserting this opinion like it is a fact, but it is not a fact. The Clerics may choose NOT to use any utility spells. Nothing says they are required to prepare them, and nothing says they are required to cast them, and nothing says they are required to cast them with spell slots instead of as rituals.Behind yes, but that doesn't make them incomparable.So, you are saying that Heal isn't sufficient healing for the amount of damage the monsters will be dishing out? Based only on your "years of game play"? So, you would be saying that ~85 hp, plus the 70 from heal will not be enough to get through two fights and use HD? I'm making sure I understand your claim here, since you are just stating things and not backing it up beyond "I have experience"So, you are saying that the two parties are not balanced against each other?</blockquote>

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