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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 8862456" data-attributes="member: 23751">Those design things don't include the hidden math.  They just all fit.  You could not for instance, complete invent a new ability and rate it without having a very good chance of getting it wrong.  They would be very unlikely to get it wrong, because they have the hidden stuff.Fine. Since you want to be pedantic about it. Clerics have channel divinity and domain abilities.  Fighters have fighting styles, feats(since you insist on optional rules being usable), indomitable, etc.Why not? Clerics have those.3 action surges, since it's not hard to have at least 2 short rests.If I've said something is too powerful, that's purely my opinion about how it works in my game.  Not a fact.  And people here have said that it works just fine and isn't overpowered in their games.  Having the opinion is fine. Change the healing spell for your game and be done with it, just like I nerf or ban things I think are too powerful or disrupt the campaign.That's horribly wrong.  Just because you can suffer through something, taking lots of damage or having to go around obstacles, doesn't mean that clerics who can avoid issues aren't better at it.  I'll let you look at some of the fighter threads to see exactly how they lag in social and exploration.No. I'm saying that some will be used, not that they are required. That's how players work.  If there's a problem and they have a utility spell that will solve it, it will almost always be cast.I love how you ignores the "or" portion of that statement in order to twist my words into "dropping people to 0 hp every single fight."The champion is not underpowered.  It is the weakest of the fighter classes.  Battle Masters have more battle utility through their maneuvers and also deal more damage. I find it convenient that you went out of your way to say no feats and use the weakest fighter in order to try and show that clerics are better, and you didn't even really manage to do that.You don't need matching AC.  The fighter is better off with a two handed weapon and great weapon master.Behind by at least 22 hit points is not comparable.It only helps in one fight out of the 6-8 for the adventuring day.  Then they die.I'm saying that if you get to use optional rules for the clerics, the fighters get to as well.</blockquote>

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