Decline of RPG sales

[BryonD]

It is more modern,

I agree.

which is a good thing.

I disagree.

They have even added a good amount of flavor to the setting,

I agree.

which is also a good thing.

I really disagree.

The decline has a lot of components to it and a ton of them can be laid at the feet of the other publishers.

I really agree.

 

[MerricB]

Consider also that Wizards considers 3e books to be mostly compatible with 3.5e. We *also* haven't seen a reprint of the Manual of the Planes (one of the best-received 3e books).

The ongoing argument of "innovation is good" generally boils down to "innovating away from D&D is good" and is utterly against my interests and the interests of Wizards, and only serves a minority of people.

That's the problem with Iron Heroes, despite Mike's best intentions: it requires all PCs and character-based NPCs be Iron Heroes-based. Magic Items (a core part of the normal D&D experience) are sidelined.

(Indeed, if it doesn't have notes for adapting prestige classes, then a great deal of the four most popular D&D supplements, the Complete series, is also made useless).

One of the fascinating things about both the Expanded Psionics Handbook and Magic of Incarnum is the way they just slot into D&D without upsetting anything. (Compare to the Complete Priest's Handbook back in 2e, which required you to redesign the cleric class and all the gods to use its rules!)

Cheers!

 

[Warbringer]

I don't know about that. Privateer Press and Rakcham have both been eating away at the foundations of GW, especially after the LoTR Movies were out of the theaters. Add to this the random painted minis and they're not as unassailable as they once were.

Joe

PP is a great game, as skirmish game, as is Rackham. Rackham's venture into "full scale armies" - Ragnarok - has been an unmittigated failure. Not a suprise when each model costs $14, plus they are too beautiful to paint quick.

But, this is nothing new. Less than 5 years ago it was Chainmail and Apocalyse; 5-10 years ago it was Clan Wars, Chronopia and Void. There is always someone nipping at the heals of the $250million GW.

Pre-paint seems to be acting as a gateway into minis rather than eating at its share. But, hopefully someone will find a way to topple GW arroagance.

(Note: GW hired a couled of sculptors from Rackham and boy does it show in the new wood elf characater models)

 

[JoeGKushner]

On the shelves or will the special order? And how long have then been there?

The B&N and Borders are not carrying the FRCS around here. I just visited them recently and had some discussions with the store managers. I am hoping that they will let me run a marketing campaign there for the Wizards products they are carrying.

The Games Plus has 'em in the stores. The Gamer's Paradise has the Player's Guide and will order the Campaign setting.

How long have they been there? Probably since they came out. As they're core books, if they sell out, they reorder 'em.

Borders especially carries all the FR stuff. Pretty big selection.

 

[Warbringer]

The ongoing argument of "innovation is good" generally boils down to "innovating away from D&D is good" and is utterly against my interests and the interests of Wizards, and only serves a minority of people.

Must say I don't read this thread this way. But, after the glut of 3rd party producers adding to 3e without much differentiation, setting and rules differentiation is bound to be a marketing repsonse.

That's the problem with Iron Heroes, despite Mike's best intentions: it requires all PCs and character-based NPCs be Iron Heroes-based. Magic Items (a core part of the normal D&D experience) are sidelined.

That's the intent of Iron Heroes, to generate a completely different feel, with learning a whole new rule mechanic.

One of the fascinating things about both the Expanded Psionics Handbook and Magic of Incarnum is the way they just slot into D&D without upsetting anything.

Becuase they are designed to fit in from a mechanics perspective. Now, there are certainly flavor issues. Aside, how exactly does Incarnum plug right into Eberron, the now defacto setting (based on recently published books).

 

[MerricB]

That's the intent of Iron Heroes, to generate a completely different feel, with learning a whole new rule mechanic.

...at the same power level as 3e, so you can still use existing monsters.

That's a vital point. Iron Heroes doesn't throw out the CR/EL mechanic. Mike is to be commended for that. From what I've read, Mike didn't want too much of existing D&D abandoned when you use Iron Heroes.

However, because magic items are so much a core part of balancing D&D characters, the character side of things must be abandoned when playing Iron Heroes. That's fine. I'm sure many people will have a blast with it. (I tend to like magic too much )

If Wizards had published this innovative product (and it's something that The Shaman brought up as innovative), then they would have drastically split their market.

The trick is to innovate whilst not destroying what has come before. I see this kind of innovation all the time from Wizards. However, when I bring up these innovations, the drastic innovation lobby don't consider them worth mentioning. "It's still D&D" is their catchcry. Well, yes. Isn't that the point?

Aside, how exactly does Incarnum plug right into Eberron, the now defacto setting (based on recently published books).

Ask Keith. Personally, I use the Kosh explanation. "It has always been here".

For the most part, I envision Incarnum as using the normal magical energies. The one difference is that tapping into the souls (of aligned creatures or magical beasts) gives you the ability to shape magic as those creatures or beasts do.

The Eberron "Mark of Heroes" RPGA campaign allows Incarnum, incidentally.

Cheers!

 

[rounser]

and is utterly against my interests and the interests of Wizards

Arguably, Eberron is an innovation against D&D...I get the feeling from WOTC that they'd really rather be developing for some pulp RPG. I got that vibe from Dungeon when it was still at WOTC. I can see how you could get thoroughly sick of D&D - maybe that's where it's coming from.

 

[Belen]

The ongoing argument of "innovation is good" generally boils down to "innovating away from D&D is good" and is utterly against my interests and the interests of Wizards, and only serves a minority of people.

To be fair, I do not think that Shaman meant for innovation in the sense that people are referring to it. I took it more as "building" the better screwdriver with the extra widget that makes it more useful.

 

[Belen]

Arguably, Eberron is an innovation against D&D...I get the feeling from WOTC that they'd really rather be developing for some pulp RPG. I got that vibe from Dungeon when it was still at WOTC. I can see how you could get thoroughly sick of D&D - maybe that's where it's coming from.

Not really. Eberron is an innovation against previous cultural offerings of D&D. It is not traditional fantasy. This is fine. Eberron is meant to be marketed to people who are more familiar with pokemon, final fantasy, and x-men than with more traditional styles.

I like the concept, but find it horribly complex to demo to kids. It has so much backstory that explaining the setting can be a bear. I'd much prefer they have a generic setting or materials for this regard, but that is a preference.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Not really. Eberron is an innovation against previous cultural offerings of D&D. It is not traditional fantasy. This is fine. Eberron is meant to be marketed to people who are more familiar with pokemon, final fantasy, and x-men than with more traditional styles.

I like the concept, but find it horribly complex to demo to kids. It has so much backstory that explaining the setting can be a bear. I'd much prefer they have a generic setting or materials for this regard, but that is a preference.

Must be in the way you're demoing it. I mean if you look at Forgotten Realms, do you get into the Avatar series or any of the dozens of novel stores? And Greyhawk... man, do you GM pre-Wars, post Wars, or something else?

Backstory is only as important as you make it. I've seen many a sucessful demo using the adventure right from the back of the book. Players usually don't demand huge swathes of background knowledge their first game out.