Defenders require bad AI from monsters

[chaotix42]

Chances are your games don't feature, say, 10% of encounters being TPKs against the party.

Good guess.

Under the simplifying assumption that an encounter will end in a TPK for one side if no one flees initially, then each monster is getting killed 90% or more of the time. So if the monsters had correct expectations about what was going to happen, and valued being killed more negatively than the positive of winning the fight (and didn't really value inflicting damage on the opposition while getting killed), in the vast majority of encounters they wouldn't want to fight if they had a decent chance to flee.

I'm not sure how relevant any of that is. The monsters would want to flee if they had knowledge of their opponents that they don't actually have?

 

[Skallgrim]

Forked from: Battlerager: Experiences?
I think the title of this thread is a false statement. I'd like to hear more about why you disagree.

I don't think that it is a false statement, but just a sometimes false one.

I don't think there should ever be a blanket rule on how enemies behave. Sometimes the enemy knows they are overmatched and tries to run. Sometimes they are enraged (or fanatical) and fight to the death. Sometimes they are overconfident and underestimate the fighter.

Making the monsters always make bad choices is wrong. Making the monsters always make good choices is wrong. A good DM should consider the monster, the situation, and the party. Some monsters DO have no survival instinct (zombies?). Others are going to be very crafty about saving their skin. Also, sometimes you can make a choice just to let a fighter "show off". I might have an enemy with 2 hp remaining. Someone's GOING to kill him anyway. Why not let him flee from combat, allowing the fighter to whack him as he tries to run? He's going to die before he gets to go again anyway.

I think the best rule is that the players shouldn't think the DM is making dumb decisions to help them out, or making convoluted decisions to screw them over. As long as the monster behavior is making sense, and the group is having fun, whether the defender gets triggered or not doesn't seem to matter. If you default to any one position every time, I think it would be boring and predictable for your players, and that's bad.

 

[chaotix42]

I think the best rule is that the players shouldn't think the DM is making dumb decisions to help them out, or making convoluted decisions to screw them over. As long as the monster behavior is making sense, and the group is having fun, whether the defender gets triggered or not doesn't seem to matter. If you default to any one position every time, I think it would be boring and predictable for your players, and that's bad.

100% this. Sometimes I'll sneer at the PCs as I move in such a way as to avoid OAs, and other times I'll roar as I recklessly move my mini past the majority of PCs just to get at the softy halfling. It's all about the moment.

 

[Elric]

I'm not sure how relevant any of that is. The monsters would want to flee if they had knowledge of their opponents that they don't actually have?

All that matters is the monster's expectations. Just because the monsters have no information about the party doesn't mean they think they'll win. If the monsters have approximately rational expectations, then they'll sometimes be overconfident and will sometimes be underconfident, but those will average out so that they're approximately correct on average. So the monster's actual chance of victory might be 1%, and sometimes the monsters will think it's higher than this, and sometimes they'll think it's lower.

The monster is systematically overconfident if it tends to think it will win fights more than it actually does. Now, PC groups might happen to all be set up in such a way that the monsters all tend to be overconfident against them, even though they wouldn't be overconfident in general.

For example, there are lots of identical groups of PC Level-6 characters in the world going around (stupidly) attacking the Shadowfell Keep that the PCs are currently attacking; the monsters win those fights almost every time without needing backup. When the PCs come in, the monsters assume it's the usual truly wimpy dudes, and don't want to split the treasure, so they charge at the PCs. You can see that explanation is a little strained, because while the monsters had reasonable expectations, this require many other adventurers out there to be incredibly dumb.

 

[chaotix42]

OK, I definitely see where you're coming from. A rational explanation for the monster's behavior. In a world full of monster-stomping adventuring parties, any monsters managing to survive day-to-day had better be well-versed in the Art of Run.

In my POL-based world the monsters are used to running the show, so they go into pretty much every encounter expecting victory - PCs or not these are the same humans and dwarves they've been devouring for years. To use your analogy, the PCs will likely be the 1st real "party" to have ever raided Shadowfell Keep.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The 'fighter' role was well-established in 1e. You had your 'fighter wall' that just litterally blocked the corridor or doorway or whatever and held back the monsters by trading blows with them (and taking a 'parting shot' if they ran). The fighter could do basically what defenders do in 4e, just by being tough and placing himself in harms way. The 4e defenders, with thier marks and class features and repetoir of limitted-use powers have it /easy/. If you can't take all those toys and hold the attention of some monster, you have no business calling yourself a fighter or paladin - shuck off the armor and become a rogue or devoted cleric or innkeeper or something.



:cranky old man voice: Kids these days, no respect for tradition....

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

While this can work, it requires almost every monster to be very overconfident. Boxing is sufficiently low stakes that overconfidence doesn't seem unreasonable; perhaps it's a good method to motivate yourself to work harder. A monster that actually has a 95% chance to get killed and 5% chance to win the fight (and wouldn't want to take the gamble of getting into a fight at 50/50 odds) would have to be overconfident by a huge factor to want to take the gamble.

First of all, the risks of defeat do not matter if you are convinced you'll win. That's why the death penalty has no statistical impact on crime rate ; people on death row all believed they'd get away with it! (or acted in the heat of the moment).

Secondly, how the hell would you know you are at 5% odds of winning? Or at 50% for that matter? Without an extended observation of the opponent, you can't tell with any accuracy. Visually, what differentiates a level 2 mercenary NPC from a level 6 fighter? Not much. Until you actually fight the guy and realize just how big a mistake you've made...

How can a band of monsters tell at a glance whether a warrior is +6 or +10 to hit? Whether the wizard is capable of just magic missile and minor tricks like most low level wizards NPC or whether this guy is capable of casting flaming sphere and ruin your day?

If you are, say, a typical orkish band, you have crushed humanoid by the dozens and in bands larger than the PCs. Why would that armoured guy be any more skilled than the dozens you have slain before? How can they know that this particular fighter has, with all powers accounted for, three time as many HP as they are used to in a soldier? Why would they expect that the frail looking guy in light armour blasts so much harder than the last adept they lynched?

A typical band of orks has won almost every fight it has ever been in. That's why the band still exists! In that business, you typically lose only one fight. And in an heroic saga, that one fight is against the PCs.

 

[Elric]

OK, I definitely see where you're coming from. A rational explanation for the monster's behavior. In a world full of monster-stomping adventuring parties, any monsters managing to survive day-to-day had better be well-versed in the Art of Run.

In my POL-based world the monsters are used to running the show, so they go into pretty much every encounter expecting victory - PCs or not these are the same humans and dwarves they've been devouring for years. To use your analogy, the PCs will likely be the 1st real "party" to have ever raided Shadowfell Keep.

Even then, though, (approximately) rational expectations has some bite. "Adventurers just burst through our door. Would they have done this if they were so weak that the five of us left to guard the door were already more than a match for them?"

If the monsters are, say, attacking a caravan which they've done dozens of times before, and the PCs are defending it, the monsters are used to winning as the humans pitifully try to defend their stuff. However, the monsters should have (approximately) rational expectations conditional on all of the information available to them. That's why I had a story about extremely weak adventuring parties trying to raid Shadowfell Keep thrown in there.

 

[chaotix42]

extremely weak adventuring parties

That's the least plausible thing I've read all night!

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

That's why I had a story about extremely weak adventuring parties trying to raid Shadowfell Keep thrown in there.

So it's okay for adventurers to be incapable to realize that Shadowfell Keep is too tough for them but monsters should know when a party of adventurers outclass them?

Even then, though, (approximately) rational expectations has some bite. "Adventurers just burst through our door. Would they have done this if they were so weak that the five of us left to guard the door were already more than a match for them?"

So... in your world guards are just for show? They figure that if someone comes, they must be stronger than them and they run?

A guard has a job; he guards. That's what he's trained to do. Armed people crash through the gate, they fights and sounds the alarm. They only retreat when it becomes clear they are outmatched, which can't be known until a few blows have been traded and people start dying.

History has taught us that those who starts fight are hardly always capable of seeing it through. So no, just because a bunch of adventurers crashed the monster's door, they shouldn't automatically expect that they are outmatched and run. Odds are very good that the last time the same thing happened, the adventurers got their ass kicked. If it wasn't the case, the monsters would have been booted from their lair already.