Defenses confirmed!!!!!!

[Reaper Steve]

anything that gets point-based systems out of my class-based game is fine in my book.

I couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[hero4hire]

You guys are missing the REALLY important point:

The "Jesus Saves... And Takes Half Damage" t-shirt will become obsolete.

Damn you, WotC!

See Judas obviously would have taken no damage due to his Rogue levels

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, but "Jesus Saves...but Gretzky picks it up in the crease, skates, backhands...SCORES!!!" is still a viable shirt.

Is it?

I didn't know that Gretzky was resurrected back into the game.

 

[Felon]

I really hope that doesn't mean that we'll see SWSE's craptastic skill system ported over into 4e. I am really really unfond of it.

I, on the other hand, am very fond of it.

While I happen to feel very ambivalent.

I welcome the demise of skill points, but I think the idea of being completely unable to train a skill unless you belong to the right class is nuts. If you make skills broad in scope, then they need to be made broadly available. I'm a scout, so without multi-classing I simply can't train Treat Injury, so I can't become adept at first aid techniques--something very scoutly IMO. And what reallly cranks up the bizarrometer is that while it would intuitively seem that the approach is intended to ensure that Use the Force is exclusive to jedi, Use the Force is in fact a skill that can be a class skill for any character.

 

[Reaper Steve]

I think the idea of being completely unable to train a skill unless you belong to the right class is nuts. If you make skills broad in scope, then they need to be made broadly available. I'm a scout, so without multi-classing I simply can't train Treat Injury, so I can't become adept at first aid techniques--something very scoutly IMO.

I can agree with that. Maybe they'll address it.

 

[Tarek]

While I happen feel very ambivalent.

I welcome the demise of skill points, but I think the idea of being completely unable to train a skill unless you belong to the right class is nuts. If you make skills broad in scope, then they need to be made broadly available. I'm a scout, so without multi-classing I simply can't train Treat Injury, so I can't become adept at first aid techniques--something very scoutly IMO. And what reallly cranks up the bizarrometer is that while it would intuitively seem that the approach is intended to ensure that Use the Force is exclusive to jedi, Use the Force is in fact a skill that can be a class skill for any character.

Use the Force is only a class skill for characters who are Force Sensitive. If your character isn't Force Sensitive, your character can't even have Use the Force as an untrained skill.

Also, you can use most skills untrained, and end up being pretty good at them anyway.

As a reminder, all skills, trained or untrained, have a base of 1/2 character level. Most skills have both trained and untrained uses. Treat Injury is one of those; you can't do surgery, but you can do basic first aid, if you're not trained.

 

[Wolv0rine]

I, on the other hand, am very fond of it.
I'd just make these minor changes:
1)Skill Focus = not a flat +5, but +level instead of +1/2 level (that's already a popular houserule and it might even be an oficial alternative.)
2) Climb, Jump, and Swim all combined into Athletics. Maybe give swim a penalty unless trained...but on the other hand, they're heroic fantasy charcters, lt them swim!
3) Acrobatics: sets the DC for the attack instead of being against a flat DC.

Other than that, I'll take SWSE skills in my DnD!

Now see, this is a *part* of my dislike or this skill system, right here. Granted it's been said they won't port over the SWSE system whole cloth, but that doesn't mean it won't be very similar. We'll see. But it's just that attitude... "They're heroic fantasy characters!". Problem is, PCs aren't the only ones who use the skill system. NPCs and monsters use the skill system too. And I think we should all be able to agree that Joe-Bob the fishmonger might just be the best swimmer in town, but that doesn't mean he can jump or climb with any degree of skill whatsoever. It's nice that PCs are heroic fantasy characters, but not everyone in the world is. NPCs generally aren't. Once you start folding separate skills into bigger, more generic skills, you start seriously screwing over NPCs and specialists.

 

[drothgery]

And I think we should all be able to agree that Joe-Bob the fishmonger might just be the best swimmer in town, but that doesn't mean he can jump or climb with any degree of skill whatsoever.

And since Joe-Bob is a first level nonheroic who's trained in Swim and has a 14 Str (he's merely the best in town, not a champion swimmer), guess what... he can't jump or climb with any degree of skill whatsoever. He's got the same bonus to skills he's not trained in as the first level D&D commoner does (i.e. just his ability modifier). The 'general competence' bonus doesn't start kicking in as even marginally useful until 4th level (and even there, only on skills where you've got a high stat).

Also note that because being trained and focused are so good, it's quite possibly to have Fred the Sage with Knowledge (stuff) +13 (high int, trained, focused) as a 1st-level nonheroic with d4 hit points and no combat skills.

 

[HeinorNY]

I hope they don't divide characters between heroic and non-heroic. That's so silly.
PCs should be "heroic" just because they have more levels.

 

[breschau]

Whereas I'm really happy to see them moving away from the single point-based granularity of 3e - I've never liked clamping a Runequest-style point-based skill system onto a class-based game.

I wouldn't mind seeing a bad/decent/good/really good level of granularity for skills, but anything that gets point-based systems out of my class-based game is fine in my book.

Another house rules being used around town is: non-class, class, and trained skills. Progressing at: +1/2 level, +3/4 level, and +1 level respectively. Throw Skill Focus (for the standard +5 bonus) on top, and you have your four levels of goodness.

It's what we use for Saga and it works great. Also gives multi-classers something for their trouble (you gain class skills when you multi-class, but there's not mechanic difference between non-class skill and class skills without the above house rule).

It's really good to see no one freaking about static defenses versus dynamic saves over here.

Just remember, Defense is what you call Taking 10 on your Saves.