Defenses confirmed!!!!!!

[Reaper Steve]

Now see, this is a *part* of my dislike or this skill system, right here. Granted it's been said they won't port over the SWSE system whole cloth, but that doesn't mean it won't be very similar. We'll see. But it's just that attitude... "They're heroic fantasy characters!". Problem is, PCs aren't the only ones who use the skill system. NPCs and monsters use the skill system too. And I think we should all be able to agree that Joe-Bob the fishmonger might just be the best swimmer in town, but that doesn't mean he can jump or climb with any degree of skill whatsoever. It's nice that PCs are heroic fantasy characters, but not everyone in the world is. NPCs generally aren't. Once you start folding separate skills into bigger, more generic skills, you start seriously screwing over NPCs and specialists.

OK...then I'd make it so you have to be trained in Athletics to be able to swim.
Or Athletics could just be jump and climb. Swim could be a talent.

 

[2WS-Steve]

Now see, this is a *part* of my dislike or this skill system, right here. Granted it's been said they won't port over the SWSE system whole cloth, but that doesn't mean it won't be very similar. We'll see. But it's just that attitude... "They're heroic fantasy characters!". Problem is, PCs aren't the only ones who use the skill system. NPCs and monsters use the skill system too. And I think we should all be able to agree that Joe-Bob the fishmonger might just be the best swimmer in town, but that doesn't mean he can jump or climb with any degree of skill whatsoever. It's nice that PCs are heroic fantasy characters, but not everyone in the world is. NPCs generally aren't. Once you start folding separate skills into bigger, more generic skills, you start seriously screwing over NPCs and specialists.

I think its better if the core rules focus on the mainstream, most common cases, instead of sacrificing simplicity so that you can achieve what you want in fringe cases.

Even for NPCs, the vast majority of my guys that care about athletics will be town guardsmen or enemy soldiers/thugs with a few ranks in Athletics -- and that'll work perfectly. Much easier to write up as DM and convenient for the players.

For special case NPCs -- like the guys who can't swim, I'd rather just jot down a note, or maybe have some sort of anti-feat that DM's use to get the flavor right.

 

[WayneLigon]

I dunno. I just don't see the post as confirming anything. He could simply be using the word in the simple, normal, generic use of that term. If I refer to my characters 'defences', I'm refering to his AC, his saves, his DR, his Dex, his item bonuses... any and/or all of those tie into 'Defenses'.

 

[HeinorNY]

I dunno. I just don't see the post as confirming anything. He could simply be using the word in the simple, normal, generic use of that term. If I refer to my characters 'defences', I'm refering to his AC, his saves, his DR, his Dex, his item bonuses... any and/or all of those tie into 'Defenses'.

Strange, I've never seen anyone refering to those as "defenses", ever.

 

[Philip]

Problem is, PCs aren't the only ones who use the skill system. NPCs and monsters use the skill system too.

Actually, they don't.

Point of the new way to build monsters is not to let them follow the same building rules as PCs. If you have a monster good at climbing, just give it +15 to its Climb skill, regardless of Hit Dice, Levels or whatever. Much easier, and much more elegant than giving low HD monsters weird racial bonuses.

 

[Gundark]

and much more elegant than giving low HD monsters weird racial bonuses.

QFT racial bonuses where this wierd band aid to fix that monster x shouldn't be able to climb that well. REally goofy if you think about it.

 

[JRR_Talking]

do find it very hard to believe that someone who is a very good swimmer, wouldnt turn out to be ok at climbing a tree or jumping a stream?

do like the idea of simplified skills.

john

 

[Li Shenron]

I am quite sure this is the kind of thing that, many years from now, WotC itself will joke about as "one of the problems of 4e" :\ It's the kind of change that people will like for the first 6-12 months, and then it will become frustrating.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

I´ll take "6-12 Month of fun" over "don´t change it" any day. YMMV.

 

[Flynn]

You guys are missing the REALLY important point:

The "Jesus Saves... And Takes Half Damage" t-shirt will become obsolete.

Damn you, WotC!

Since they're called Save Defenses, you could still go with it.

With Regards,
Flynn