D&D 5E Defensive Duelist fix?


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Xeviat

Community Supporter
Supporter
Let it give you advantage when it causes their attack to miss.

Actually! I really like this. Double chance to hit would be fairly close to getting a second attack attempt.

But, riposte would negate the chances of getting an opportunity attack, so again there's multiple balancing points there for a rogue.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
Let it give you advantage when it causes their attack to miss.
Sure, that would be great, and make this revision even more of a must want for rogues.

"Wait, he missed? Cool, now not only can I use my reaction to attack him, but it triggers my sneak attack automatically! Man, this is awesome!!! drools ;)
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Sure, that would be great, and make this revision even more of a must want for rogues.

"Wait, he missed? Cool, now not only can I use my reaction to attack him, but it triggers my sneak attack automatically! Man, this is awesome!!! drools ;)

How does a rogue use a reaction to attack him? He’s already used one for defensive duelist and what reaction allows a rogue to attack?
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
How does a rogue use a reaction to attack him? He’s already used one for defensive duelist and what reaction allows a rogue to attack?
Sorry, we (the posts in general...) were discussing the Riposte, and I thought you were saying grant advantage on the attack caused when using Riposte.

What attack were you talking about?
 


Defensive Duellist in its current form can be pretty nasty. I've gotten a lot of good use out of it combined with plate and shield, particularly at high levels.

I would hesitate before granting its AC bonus in addition to an out-of-turn attack. Perhaps something more like:
Parry-Riposte.
When an opponent within your reach makes an attack against you, as a reaction you may impose disadvantage on the attack roll. If the opponent rolls two dice and both would have missed you, you may make an immediate melee attack against them.

Sure, that would be great, and make this revision even more of a must want for rogues.

"Wait, he missed? Cool, now not only can I use my reaction to attack him, but it triggers my sneak attack automatically! Man, this is awesome!!! drools ;)
. . .
I'm pretty sure Frogreaver is talking about gaining advantage instead of attacking out-of-turn.
 


Laurefindel

Legend
The parry ability has precedents in the Monstrous Manual. For the sake of continuity, i wouldn't add any riders to the parry.
I like the addition of riposte as an additional use for your reaction with the Defensive Duelist feat however.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
Let it give you advantage when it causes their attack to miss.
And back to my point: advantage on what?

Your next attack before the end of your next turn?
The next attack you make against the attacker you parry?

Since some of us were discussing the Riposte attack option, my thought was you meant that, and would make that feature very powerful for Rogues.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
And back to my point: advantage on what?

Your next attack before the end of your next turn?
The next attack you make against the attacker you parry?

Since some of us were discussing the Riposte attack option, my thought was you meant that, and would make that feature very powerful for Rogues.

I think you can figure it out.
 

And back to my point: advantage on what?

Your next attack before the end of your next turn?
The next attack you make against the attacker you parry?

Since some of us were discussing the Riposte attack option, my thought was you meant that, and would make that feature very powerful for Rogues.
From the context where it was posted: The next attack you make against the attacker you parry.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
I think you can figure it out.
At this point, of course (hence I hope you understand I was not being serious), but you could have been more specific and avoided any confusion.

Myself and one or two others were discussing the attack granted by Riposte and the idea of only gaining that attack when your Parry causes it to miss.
Then, you throw in "Let it give you advantage when it causes their attack to miss."

I think the confusion was understandable.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
How does a rogue use a reaction to attack him? He’s already used one for defensive duelist and what reaction allows a rogue to attack?
The idea is that it works similarly to deflect arrows, where you can do a thing as part of the same reaction.

But unlike deflect, it sometimes simply won’t be possible to benefit from it, because the enemy hits by more than your prof bonus.
 

I don't necessarily think it's weak but I don't think it's worth a whole feat. I just added it as a special weapon tag on certain weapons so players can choose to have the option without a large opportunity cost.
The 13 Dex prerequisite stays and so far I have daggers without the thrown property, S swords, and scimitars with it.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
At this point, of course (hence I hope you understand I was not being serious), but you could have been more specific and avoided any confusion.

Myself and one or two others were discussing the attack granted by Riposte and the idea of only gaining that attack when your Parry causes it to miss.
Then, you throw in "Let it give you advantage when it causes their attack to miss."

I think the confusion was understandable.

Of course, the confusion was initially understandable - and no, my initial comment didn't need to be more specific - I hadn't even read that part of the thread to know that it could have been misunderstood.

But more important to me is that after I had sufficiently cleared it up you went right back to your initial question as if it wasn't answered.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
Of course, the confusion was initially understandable - and no, my initial comment didn't need to be more specific - I hadn't even read that part of the thread to know that it could have been misunderstood.

But more important to me is that after I had sufficiently cleared it up you went right back to your initial question as if it wasn't answered.

Well, first I never said you "need" to be more specific. I said "you could have been" and thus avoid any confusion.

And this...
I thought we were talking about defensive duelist. This was my suggested enhancement.
is your idea of something you "had sufficiently cleared it up"?

Hmm... that is basically just you being snarky. So, my response was sarcastic. ;)
 


Defensive Duelist is pretty weak sauce, so I’d like to spice it up.

My main idea is to add a repost if you make the attack miss? Does it then become too strong for classes with strong single attacks?

If so, what about two separate things? If an attack misses you, you can make an attack against the attacker as a reaction. This way you can either use your reaction to parry or to riposte, but not both. Which is lame in relation to feeling like an actual duelist, but perhaps more balanced?

Then again, the version where you can do both in a single reaction is still at best comparable to the best extant feats.

What about all of it in one package, change finesse to light?

So;

When you are wielding a finesse or light weapon with which you are proficient, you gain the following abilities.
  • Duelist’s Parry. When another creature hits you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to add your proficiency bonus to your AC for that attack, potentially causing the attack to miss you.
  • Duelist’s Riposte, when an attack misses you, you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against the creature that missed you.
  • If you cause an attack to miss you by using Duelist’s Parry, you can use Duelist’s Riposte as part of the same reaction. If you do so, you cannot use either ability again until you have gone a round without using your reaction.

Might be simpler to have the Parry-riposte combo be “you can make an attack with advantage as a bonus action on your next turn against the same creature”?

I have it worded something like:
  • When armed with a finesse weapon and not using a shield or wearing heavy armour, when another creature hits you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to add your proficiency bonus to your AC for that attack, potentially causing the attack to miss you.
  • If you cause an attack to miss you using this feat, you can make a melee weapon attack with a finesse weapon you are holding as part of the same reaction against the creature that missed you, presuming it is in your reach.
 


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