defensive fighting and special attacks

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

It looks like you're thinking that the multi-step grapple attack does no damage because it has multiple steps. Is that what you're trying to say?

No. A grapple certainly does damage. The question is whether or not it is a melee damage roll. I maintain that it is not. Rather, it is a grapple damage roll.

Grapple attacks clearly do inflict damage (usually nonlethal, as if with an unarmed strike, per step 3). One can even take Weapon Specialization in grapple to inflict a little more damage.

Agreed.

If a rogue grappler catches someone flat-footed, he could even get sneak attack damage while grappling.

Not agreed. In order for a sneak attack to occur, you must make an attack roll and do damage. Since a grapple check is not an attack roll, it does not meet the necessary and sufficient conditions to be a sneak attack. Now, the initial touch attack to start a grapple is an attack roll, but it does not damage, so it, too cannot be a sneak attack.

As for grapple checks begin like a melee attack, check out the similarity between the attack bonus for a grapple check and the two other types of attack bonuses:

Yep, I agree they look similar. However, if they were exactly the same, then the grapple check language would say, "A grapple check is a melee attack roll with a special size modifier. Here are the special size modifiers:"

It doesn't.

Instead, it says, "A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Here's the bonuses you take into account:"

Sorry, Patryn. You have not proven your two points

Nor have you proven yours. You start with the assumption that they are, in fact, attack rolls, and all your points of contention flow from that base assumption. You are begging the question.

You argue that Power Attack gives you something for nothing because you assume that the damage from a grapple check is a melee damage roll because you assume, from the get go, that PA can be used at all.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

In your quote.

You mean here?

If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

I see nothing here that requires the Attack action or the Full Attack action. Rather, they seem to require their "Grapple Subsystem" equivalents.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And it says that where, exactly?

Footnote 7 on the Table of Action Types.

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Footnote 7 on the Table of Action Types.

-Hyp.

That's the "You can attempt any of these things in place of an attack" footnote.

7 These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity.

That does not apply to the "Attack Your Opponent" or "Damage Your Opponent" actions, which are available during a grapple.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Actually, I mean here, "Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action)." When they take the place of an attack, they are by definition being used in an Attack of Full Attack action. So, it clearly shows that the "Attack an Opponent" action in fact uses the Attack of Full Attack action from the list of combat actions.

 

[kjenks]

Nor have you proven yours. You start with the assumption that they are, in fact, attack rolls, and all your points of contention flow from that base assumption. You are begging the question.

No, I'm starting from that statement in the PH saying a grapple check is like an attack roll, backed up by analogies with the regular melee attack roll and ranged attack roll, and backed up by all but one entry in the old 3e FAQ and the new 3.5e FAQ. That one entry was written by Andy Collins, the new Sage.

Since you are contending that -- contrary to the PH rule -- grapple checks are not like melee attack rolls, the burden of proof is on you.

So, where is the rule which states that grapple checks are not like melee attack rolls? Where is the rule stating what other differences exist -- other than the size modifier?

Until you answer that, you haven't proven a thing.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's the "You can attempt any of these things in place of an attack" footnote.

That's right.

That does not apply to the "Attack Your Opponent" or "Damage Your Opponent" actions, which are available during a grapple.

Right. And 'grapple' has the footnote.

When they take the place of an attack, they are by definition being used in an Attack of Full Attack action.

Well, more information is required. They take the place of an attack, so they can be used in any situation you are permitted an attack. That's not limited to the Attack or Full Attack action; you can also make attacks as part of the Charge action, or as an AoO, for example.

But you can't Charge while you're grappling, and you threaten no area while you're grappling. So effectively, we're back to the attack or full attack action.

Patryn - each of the grappling actions takes the place of an attack, but unless you're taking the attack action or full attack action, you have no attacks for the actions to take the place of.

There's nothing wrong with fighting defensively while grappling if you're using the 'Attack your opponent' option - you are attacking, and using the attack or full attack action.

If you're using the 'Damage your opponent' option, it's less clear whether you fit the requirement of 'when attacking' - you are performing the option in place of attacking, and it's not explicit that you're still literally attacking.

Combat Expertise is less certain - since neither of you threaten the other while grappling, you are not 'in melee combat' unless an enemy external to the grapple threatens you.

-Hyp.

 

[Diirk]

Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

I'd just like to take a moment to point out that even if you did Power Attack during a grapple, if you're using the 'Damage Your Opponent' option you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike... which is a light weapon. Power Attack in 3.5 doesn't give extra damage when used with light weapons. So no benefit.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'd just like to take a moment to point out that even if you did Power Attack during a grapple, if you're using the 'Damage Your Opponent' option you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike... which is a light weapon. Power Attack in 3.5 doesn't give extra damage when used with light weapons. So no benefit.

Read Power Attack again.

-Hyp.

 

[Diirk]

Ah, I stand corrected. So much for that argument !