Defining its own Mythology

Doug McCrae said:
Gnomes, druids and bards aren't key to anything. If they were how could people have managed to play 1974 OD&D?

Part of this is an essential feature of new editions. 3.0 reduced options compared to the many Complete X and Players Options books available at the tail end of 2e. Eventually you'll have your complete gnome writeup in 4e PHB2 or whatever and the game will once more be playable for you.

The ability to select from a decent range of diverse races and classes is. No thanks. Why wait? It's quite playable now without waiting for the folks with the machetes to stop their hacking and without spending another dime.
 

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Again though, Basic/Expert D&D had their setting hard coded into the rules. Yet, those rules were very, very successful, to the point where people sometimes trumpet them as being the best rules for D&D.

If coding the setting into the rules is bad, why would B/E/etc have been so successful?
 

AWizardInDallas said:
The ability to select from a decent range of diverse races and classes is. No thanks. Why wait? It's quite playable now without waiting for the folks with the machetes to stop their hacking and without spending another dime.

If you think 3e is perfect for you (or any other form of D&D), there is no need to go to 4e.

However, if you feel as I do: that 4e D&D will fix a bunch of problems you were having with the structure of 3e, then it's worth getting 4e!

This isn't a "you must go to 4e!" situation. Play the edition you enjoy... but don't be surprised that not everyone thinks that it is the one for them.

Cheers!
 


Raven Crowking said:
I've run Keep on the Borderlands using BD&D, 1e, 2e, and 3e. Doing so, in each case, required only minimal modification. I suspect that I will not be able to run Keep on the Borderlands without heavy modification in 4e. In fact, I suspect that Keep on the Shadowfell is supposed to be 4e's Keep on the Borderlands. I begin to suspect that the delay in getting an SRD to third-party developers is to ensure that KotS becomes a shared experience. After all, you'll have nothing else to try.

I, too, have run KotB under several editions of D&D (most recently, 3.5e), and I've seen nothing at all that indicates I won't be able to run it with 4e. In fact, to a large extent, I think it'll be an easier job than with 3e, for the power of monster groups looks more like being 1e in baseline rather than 3e.

"Keep on the Shadowfell" being a 3e B2? I really, really hope so! :)

Cheers!
 

A lot of what I am reading about 4e strikes me as "rust monster is only a gotcha monster". Very little strikes me as "rust monster is a concept that can be used in many ways."

This convo is more than making strange bedfellows, it's practically lion-laying-down-with-the-lamb kind of stuff. Though I suppose that's in season. ;)

I disagreed with you on the wisdom of the rust monster re-design. As I saw it, the only major hiccup was that the rust power magically went away, rather than (say) being removed with a skill check or something.

But I agree with you that 4e appears to be setting a tone that necessarily limits, and specifically with regards to "monsters are only good for combat" mentality, which was my first hint that 4e might be hitting a few conceptual stumbling blocks.

I like monsters that are good for combat. But I need my monsters to be good for MORE than just combat, too!

I used the term "failure of imagination" in the Dryad thread, and I think it would be applicable here, too. If the designers take the rust monster and just jettison it because of some reductionist philosophy like that, they have had a massive and systemic failure of imagination.

Which would probably explain most of these names they're coming up with, too.... ;)

"Branding" is all about restricting options to a common denominator. As I said earlier, this is generally a bad thing for D&D. Fluff names like "Golden Wyvern Style" require more work to remove from the game than it seems on the surface, as Dr. Awkward pointed out so well. Indeed, it might be easier to stat up gnome PCs for yourself than to extract the common denominator fluff being built into the game's terminology.

Not only that, but it robs my ability as a DM to set that up in my world. D&D has let weird outliers quietly exist since 1e, and 3e, as you point out, was one of the first editions to really embrace the potential imagination of the player base. I feel like 4e may be a bit of a step back, where they tell you how you should play it so strongly that they won't support what's outside of their milieu.

The problem crops up when you realize NO ONE PLAYS IN THE "CORE SETTING." The core setting for all editions has been largely implied, and a house rule here or there (no half-races!) changes it. DMs will ALWAYS put house rules in place. If 4e tells me "Humans are generally horse-breeders of the plains," one of the first things I'm going to want to do is have them ride giant turtles on Polynesian islands, I'm sure. 3e didn't mind that so much. Take the Ride skill, take the stats for a giant tortoise, take the warm weather rules and the swimming rules, and run. 4e might break to pieces if I do that.

So it's not only work to remove, but it's also more difficult to change, or to use yourself for something different. The core of 3e went from Westerns to the Orient to Africa to the New World with only superficial changes (and those were some of my favorite products for the game, ever, period). The core of 4e can pretty much do only the core of 4e, which takes it back from the hands of the creative crew of the DM's and puts it back in Wizard's camp saying "We know what's best for you!"

Ick.

Ditching the Great Wheel? Meh. The Great Wheel only existed as an example of how to create your own cosmology, anyway. Trying to force your cosmology down my throat by tying the "new core" PC races into it? No bloody thank you.

What's more weirding me out is not the new races (more options are better!), but the fact that they are so inextricably wed to the cosmology that it hurts to disentangle them. Take Eladrin Teleporting for instance. The claim is that they step into the Feywild to move. But if I don't use the Feywild in my game, I either nerf them or think of a different fluff. And if the fluff is more appropriate to another setting (Eladrin teleport because of cybernetic technology imbedded in their pancreas), it might interfere with the mechanics, giving me a worse cascade than 3e's ability damage!

Compare with a more vague earlier-edition "eladrin can teleport" note, leaving the wheres and whyfores up to the individual campaign, it leaves it much more open-ended.

So to answer your question, the thing that is being removed by 4e that was supported by all the other editions, to varying degrees, and with varying degrees of emphasis, is the core identity of D&D itself: the trappings of the world, society, races, magic, gods and monsters shameless ripped off from other fantasy sources and filtered through the Gygaxian lens.

Add to it by all means. Take it away, though, and you deliver a weak sauce indeed. (Thanks, KM, for that phrase.)

What's slightly more upsetting to me is taking away the whole "The people who know your game best is your gaming group, we're going to give them tools to help them play the game they want to play" atmosphere for a "Our Way or the Highway!" kind of feel.

If they define their own mythology, they, by necessity, define it in opposition to every other mythology out there. And sorry, Wizards, but you are not capable of knowing what kind of game my group likes better than me. You should be empowering me to deliver them the game they want, not telling me to deliver them the game you want me to deliver.

A power of D&D's that it has always had, and something that defines it more against videogames than any nebulous concept of "non-linearality" is it's ability to be modded, altered, changed, re-arranged, broken, and re-built fairly easily. It's a Maker's game, a game made for tinkering it to your own style, for personalization.

Wedding too closely the mechanics to their pet setting is one big fat "WARRANTY VOIDED IF OPENED" sticker on the thing.

I still don't think the designers are myopic enough to do this. I still fear that it's going to have elements of it woven into the core rules.

And no problem on the semi-neologism, RC! Though I think I got it from MMORPG's, so....grains of salt and all that. ;)
 

What's more weirding me out is not the new races (more options are better!), but the fact that they are so inextricably wed to the cosmology that it hurts to disentangle them. Take Eladrin Teleporting for instance. The claim is that they step into the Feywild to move. But if I don't use the Feywild in my game, I either nerf them or think of a different fluff. And if the fluff is more appropriate to another setting (Eladrin teleport because of cybernetic technology imbedded in their pancreas), it might interfere with the mechanics, giving me a worse cascade than 3e's ability damage!

Just to take this idea for a second. The Ethereal plane is massively hard coded into D&D. Monsters come from there, spells can take you there, magic items abound etc. Is that so much different than Feywild? How is it different?
 

To me, it doesn't look like 4E is any more hard coded to a core set of assumptions than any previous edition, but it does look like the developers are being much more explicit about what those assumptions are. Also, I don't see any difference between something like Eladrin teleporting through the Feywild and all Elves being proficient in short and long swords and bows.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
The problem crops up when you realize NO ONE PLAYS IN THE "CORE SETTING."

I contend that this statement is simply not true.

However, we in the internets don't know this for certain one way or another.
 

MerricB said:
I, too, have run KotB under several editions of D&D (most recently, 3.5e), and I've seen nothing at all that indicates I won't be able to run it with 4e. In fact, to a large extent, I think it'll be an easier job than with 3e, for the power of monster groups looks more like being 1e in baseline rather than 3e.

"Keep on the Shadowfell" being a 3e B2? I really, really hope so! :)

Cheers!

I take it that you've overcome your crisis of faith, then?

:D

RC
 

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