Defining TTRPGs and the the International Roguelike Development Conference's "Berlin Interpretation"

[Tun Kai Poh]

I wanted to springboard a discussion off this really interesting point made in the "Limits of my Language" thread.

Kind of tangent, but…

I think that the main problem with any kind of TTRPG discussion, theory, and whatnot is the fuzziness of the term itself. If:

• Solving tactical and strategic problems in hostile, “fantasy Vietnam” environment…
• Char-op and hacking and slashing…
• Immersing oneself in an imaginary world, speaking in funny voices and all that…
• Experiencing a linear, GM-authored story with an agreement between the participants to not “break” it…
• Collaborative storytelling in a director stance and all that genre emulation jazz…
• Playing a solo game with journaling and random tables to generate prompts…

…is TTRPGing, then, what isn't? At which point we can say that activity X isn't a TTRPG? Even the “tabletop” part is a questionable criterion — we live in 2E 21 and a lot of games are played online, and even before that, many games don't really have a use for a table.

Of course people butt heads all the ####ing time! Why wouldn't they?

I'm sure there's a way we can come up with a list of qualities that TTRPGs share, in a similar way to how the 2008 International Roguelike Development Conference in Berlin came up with a list of qualities that define a Roguelike computer game.

Because of the sprawling diversity of the games that have been called Roguelike, the discussion at the conference produced a list of qualities that were not meant to be an exclusive and definitive list of what was or was not Roguelike. Instead,

Missing some points does not mean the game is not a roguelike. Likewise, possessing some points does not mean the game is a roguelike.

If a game had a number of these qualities, we could say that a game is "more Roguelike" or "less Roguelike" than a particular example based on these criteria.

Most interestingly, developers have come up with revised lists to account for the newer generations of Roguelikes (and the "Roguelite" genre that includes games like Spelunky and Hades).

So...we could come up with a list of qualities of TTRPGs that the genre shares, but not every game needs to have all of those qualities. I'm not sure of the utility of this, but we do love to make lists and definitions, don't we?

 

[payn]

Missing some points does not mean the game is not a roguelike. Likewise, possessing some points does not mean the game is a roguelike.

This right here gives me a headache already. I have seen a number of posts indicating very narrow views of what an RPG is. I have seen posts that have very encompassing views on what an RPG is. No idea how you come to terms with that.

 

[Haiku Elvis]

I'm not saying it can't be done but the advantage of the roguelike definition is there was a single original game that the genre (and definition) is based on. The equivalent would be if we looked to OG D&D only for defining points, but the reason OSR exists is most modern games have moved away from that to a certain degree over time and would probably fail that test. Hell even 5e might not depending on the definition points chosen.

I think the below amended quote from Justice Potter Stewart may be best we can manage:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography" TTRPGs], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it."

 

[payn]

I'm not saying it can't be done but the advantage of the roguelike definition is there was a single original game that the genre (and definition) is based on. The equivalent would be if we looked to OG D&D only for defining points, but the reason OSR exists is most modern games have moved away from that to a certain degree over time and would probably fail that test. Hell even 5e might not depending on the definition points chosen.

I think the below amended quote from Justice Potter Stewart may be best we can manage:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography" TTRPGs], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it."

Not only that, but a number of folks will take issue of using D&D at all, as the template for TTRPGs.

 

[dragoner]

I wanted to springboard a discussion off this really interesting point made in the "Limits of my Language" thread.


I'm sure there's a way we can come up with a list of qualities that TTRPGs share, in a similar way to how the 2008 International Roguelike Development Conference in Berlin came up with a list of qualities that define a Roguelike computer game.

Because of the sprawling diversity of the games that have been called Roguelike, the discussion at the conference produced a list of qualities that were not meant to be an exclusive and definitive list of what was or was not Roguelike. Instead,


If a game had a number of these qualities, we could say that a game is "more Roguelike" or "less Roguelike" than a particular example based on these criteria.

Most interestingly, developers have come up with revised lists to account for the newer generations of Roguelikes (and the "Roguelite" genre that includes games like Spelunky and Hades).

So...we could come up with a list of qualities of TTRPGs that the genre shares, but not every game needs to have all of those qualities. I'm not sure of the utility of this, but we do love to make lists and definitions, don't we?

I know I don't get much traction, yet I feel that these games, it is simple enough to say that rolling a d20 vs a target number, and that is D&D. It's the base mechanic, I can't think of anything else in the beginning which would say it is not so. Though I know we all get our own personal definitions too.

 

[Tun Kai Poh]

I know I don't get much traction, yet I feel that these games, it is simple enough to say that rolling a d20 vs a target number, and that is D&D. It's the base mechanic, I can't think of anything else in the beginning which would say it is not so. Though I know we all get our own personal definitions too.

Arneson's home game used 2d6 so...

 

[dragoner]

Arneson's home game used 2d6 so...

Cool? So does Traveller, which is more important; except I only vaguely know who Arneson was, I mean I have heard the name.

 

[Tun Kai Poh]

Cool? So does Traveller, which is more important; except I only vaguely know who Arneson was, I mean I have heard the name.

That's exactly what Gygax wanted.

Dungeons & Deceptions: The First D&D Players Push Back On The Legend Of Gary Gygax

Everybody calls Rob Kuntz last, he says. Those who want to know about the history of Dungeons & Dragons start with co-creator Gary Gygax’s kids, one of Gygax’s biographers, or D&D publisher Wizards of the Coast. As they’re wrapping things up, they might get around to dialing up Kuntz, a...

kotaku.com

 

[Aldarc]

I wanted to springboard a discussion off this really interesting point made in the "Limits of my Language" thread.


I'm sure there's a way we can come up with a list of qualities that TTRPGs share, in a similar way to how the 2008 International Roguelike Development Conference in Berlin came up with a list of qualities that define a Roguelike computer game.

Because of the sprawling diversity of the games that have been called Roguelike, the discussion at the conference produced a list of qualities that were not meant to be an exclusive and definitive list of what was or was not Roguelike. Instead,


If a game had a number of these qualities, we could say that a game is "more Roguelike" or "less Roguelike" than a particular example based on these criteria.

Most interestingly, developers have come up with revised lists to account for the newer generations of Roguelikes (and the "Roguelite" genre that includes games like Spelunky and Hades).

So...we could come up with a list of qualities of TTRPGs that the genre shares, but not every game needs to have all of those qualities. I'm not sure of the utility of this, but we do love to make lists and definitions, don't we?

Maybe TTRPG is too broad in the same way that 'video/computer/console game' is likewise too broad of a starting point. 'Roguelike' represents a genre or arguably sub-genre of games, so maybe we should not be looking at what qualities TTRPGs share on the whole, but, rather, look at different TTRPGs out there as a families or genres of games and the traits that they share. What are the "genres" or "types" of TTRPGs that are out there?

 

[hawkeyefan]

It’s gonna be a challenge just to get anywhere in such a discussion @Tun Kai Poh ….but I’ll throw a few traits I think are common enough.

Just a few to get started, but here we go:

• Participants adopt fictional roles
• There is a shared fictional space thought of as the game world
• There are rules and processes that determine what happens in the fictional space and who gets to decide and when
• There is usually some randomizing factor used to help determine the results of actions when the outcomes are in doubt

I’d have more, but I’m trying to be as foundational as possible, so those are what I’d start with.

*Edited to finish a thought that got cut off.