D&D General Deleted

[Kaiyanwang]

What does that even mean? Evil is not a substance. Evil is a subjective concept; it's a term that only has meaning when given context. You can't be made of evil. That's like being made of red, or made of comfort, etc..

You can say the words "a plane of pure evil," for example, but those words will mean something different to every single person. Some might picture something like their interpretation of a stereotypical Christian conception of Hell. Others might imagine a void. According to Sartre, Hell is other people.

That's why Gary Gygax can describe Lawful Good by using examples that sound plenty evil from my perspective.

Evil is not an element, as in fire or water, but is physical in D&D. Sartre lived in the real world which is not a "black and white" universe like the D&D one - for the record, it goes without saying, but I am in no way, shape and form advocating this point of view for this universe.
See my early post for details.

 

[Bedrockgames]

. Others might imagine a void. According to Sartre, Hell is other people.

This is why Lawful Good Paladins of Sartre are the absolute worst. They just go around killing anyone they please. By their definition, even other Paladins of Sartre are fair game.

 

[Cadence]

Do some of the mid-to-later editions talk about the alignment in terms of what they generally try to do?

Not that I recall in any obvious way*, but Rifts sets its alignment system apart by doing so in a way that is relevant to actual gameplay.

Looking things up, 2e's section with alignment starts with:

Under paladin it has:

PF 1e seems to mimic that (not being a straitjacket):

 

[Chaltab]

Under paladin it has:
View attachment 365644

Some of that is so silly to me. Stealth in the cause of good is a last resort? What if you're trying to get the jump on some mind flayers and don't want to risk your brain? Do you have to try to get by them a few times and only sneak by on them after they've killed half the party?

 

[Chaltab]

It occurs to me that they seem to be coming at their approach to Paladin morality as though it exists in the real world middle ages, where battles involved big formations and standards and knights were expected to fight honorably--without considering the implications of the D&D world with its dragons, mind flayers, beholders, and demons.

 

[Clint_L]

Evil is not an element, as in fire or water, but is physical in D&D.

I find this impossible to conceptualize. I can only imagine evil in terms of context.

For example, take the Necronomicon, a classic example of an object of Pure Evil. It is written in blood, bound in human flesh, contains descriptions and illustrations of the vilest of acts, merely reading it unleashes violent, sadistic entities that seek to possess and destroy, etc. All really bad stuff. But it's still made of things. Paper, which was formerly wood or cloth (or maybe parchment made from skin?). Blood. Flesh. They're just molecules, suitably arranged.

This notion of physical evil...I don't get it. Can a sword made of evil cut things? Can you sharpen it? Can you only sharpen it with an evil sharpener? Could there be a pillow made of evil? Would it be soft? What colour would it be? Can I have evil underwear? (Maybe scratch that last one).

 

[Cadence]

Some of that is so silly to me. Stealth in the cause of good is a last resort? What if you're trying to get the jump on some mind flayers and don't want to risk your brain? Do you have to try to get by them a few times and only sneak by on them after they've killed half the party?

I'm certainly not defending 2e! But it feels like it was a darn sight better than 1e in this regard. I was just trying to show that even at the start of 2e, alignment wasn't the death grip of stupid it is sometimes portrayed to be, even back then. (Maybe tap on the shoulder of wtf, but not death grip of stupid).

 

[Cadence]

I find this impossible to conceptualize. I can only imagine evil in terms of context.

For example, take the Necronomicon, a classic example of an object of Pure Evil. It is written in blood, bound in human flesh, contains descriptions and illustrations of the vilest of acts, merely reading it unleashes violent, sadistic entities that seek to possess and destroy, etc. All really bad stuff. But it's still made of things. Paper, which was formerly wood or cloth (or maybe parchment made from skin?). Blood. Flesh. They're just molecules, suitably arranged.

This notion of physical evil...I don't get it. Can a sword made of evil cut things? Can you sharpen it? Can you only sharpen it with an evil sharpener? Could there be a pillow made of evil? Would it be soft? What colour would it be? Can I have evil underwear? (Maybe scratch that last one).

Is it worse than imagining hit points and armor class and fireballs that ignite the paper in front of you but not in your hands and how.carrying capacity works in 5e

But seriously, I think everyone has things they don't like in almost any complex enough game. And alignment seems one of the easier ones to nuke in terms of impact.

Have you read any Elric? That feels relevant to the question of pure chaos, anyway. Which feels related.

Trying to think of examples for a sword or incarnate alignment. Could there be a lightsaber style version of the light that came out of the ark in Indiana Jones? (Do you read the Dresden files?)

 

[Bedrockgames]

I find this impossible to conceptualize. I can only imagine evil in terms of context.

For example, take the Necronomicon, a classic example of an object of Pure Evil. It is written in blood, bound in human flesh, contains descriptions and illustrations of the vilest of acts, merely reading it unleashes violent, sadistic entities that seek to possess and destroy, etc. All really bad stuff. But it's still made of things. Paper, which was formerly wood or cloth (or maybe parchment made from skin?). Blood. Flesh. They're just molecules, suitably arranged.

This notion of physical evil...I don't get it. Can a sword made of evil cut things? Can you sharpen it? Can you only sharpen it with an evil sharpener? Could there be a pillow made of evil? Would it be soft? What colour would it be? Can I have evil underwear? (Maybe scratch that last one).

I do find D&D cosmology a little bit cartoonish (it is one of the reasons I preferred the Ravenloft setting). But I don't think it is hard to imagine. It strikes me as somewhat Manichaean.

 

[Bedrockgames]

For example, take the Necronomicon, a classic example of an object of Pure Evil. It is written in blood, bound in human flesh, contains descriptions and illustrations of the vilest of acts, merely reading it unleashes violent, sadistic entities that seek to possess and destroy, etc. All really bad stuff. But it's still made of things. Paper, which was formerly wood or cloth (or maybe parchment made from skin?). Blood. Flesh. They're just molecules, suitably arranged.

This notion of physical evil...I don't get it. Can a sword made of evil cut things? Can you sharpen it? Can you only sharpen it with an evil sharpener? Could there be a pillow made of evil? Would it be soft? What colour would it be? Can I have evil underwear? (Maybe scratch that last one).

I dont' know how prevalent the idea is of evil being physical things in D&D. I feel like good, evil, etc are more like cosmic forces that people align with. And that some beings are generated by these forces. But I can still imagine an evil or good object in a number of different ways. One is a possessed or inhabited object (which you would see in both Christianity but also in in a lot of Asian beliefs). Another would be an object created either directly by an evil force (I.e. a demon forged this sword) or was made from a creature that was evil or from material from an evil plane of existence. If we imagine characters going into dante's inferno and finding some ore to and extracting its metal to make an evil sword or lock box, that is easy enough to visualize. I don't think this would particularly line up with most Christian conceptions of good and evil or hell, but I can imagine it in a fantasy world that is drawing on a wide well of myth and stories.

I think where this could get silly is if you try breaking it down to the cellular level or try to do something not terribly serious like monetize evil bricks made from abyssal granite or something (though in a gonzo campaign that wouldn't necessarily be an issue)