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Design and Development: Cosmology

Why people are so fixated on White Wolf? Myths, fairly tales, fantasy literature and most of all previous D&D books are sources for all those planes. The "Copyrightable names" are a rather strange convention in the style of Games Workshop, but the real names are pretty obvious. I think however that Gary Gygax had rather greater talent with words...

Faerie is a very old idea, rather popular in hundreds of fairy tales. See eg Tolkien's "Smith of Wooton Major" and "On Fairy Stories".

The land of the dead is also rather popular - a good example would be LeGuin's Earthsea. Here it seems to be combined with the Ethereal Plane - very sensibly. Here is at least an explanation for all those ethereal ghosts. The plane of Shadow is also added to the mix.

Astral Plane is a rather D&D idea - based on the spiritualists and Swedenborg, of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg
http://swedenborg.newearth.org/hh/hh00toc.html

Dividing the realms of the souls into the Astral Plane and the Outer Planes made rather little sense. Combining them is a great improvement.

As for the Elemental Chaos - as many mentioned, it is taken verbatim from Milton.

Some interesting quotes from Swedenborg:

http://swedenborg.newearth.org/hh/hh61.html

"In the spiritual world, that is, in the world where spirits and angels are, the same objects appear as in the natural world, that is, where men are. In external appearance there is no difference. In that world plains and mountains, hills and rocks, and valleys between them are seen; also waters, and many other things that are seen on earth. And yet all these things are from a spiritual origin, and all are therefore seen by the eyes of spirits and angels, and not by the eyes of men, because men are in the natural world. ...
...
The heavens are in the higher parts of the spiritual world, the world of spirits in the lower parts, and under both are the hells. The heavens are visible to spirits in the world of spirits only when their interior sight is opened; although they sometimes see them as mists or as bright clouds. .... But the hells are not seen because they are closed up. Only the entrances, which are called gates, are seen when they are opened to let in other like spirits. All the gates to the hells open from the world of spirits, and none of them from heaven....
...
The hells are everywhere, both under the mountains, hills, and rocks, and under the plains and valleys. The openings or gates to the hells that are under the mountains, hills, and rocks, appear to the sight like holes and clefts in the rocks, some extended and wide, and some straitened and narrow, and many of them rugged. They all, when looked into, appear dark and dusky; but the infernal spirits that are in them are in such a luminosity as arises from burning coals. Their eyes are adapted to the reception of that light, ...the light of heaven is thick darkness to them, and therefore when they go out of their dens they see nothing.
....
The openings or gates to the hells that are beneath the plains and valleys present to the sight different appearances. Some resemble those that are beneath the mountains, hills and rocks; some resemble dens and caverns, some great chasms and whirlpools; some resemble bogs, and some standing water.

... Some of the hells appeared to the view like caverns and dens in rocks extending inward and then downward into an abyss, either obliquely or vertically. Some of the hells appeared to the view like the dens and caves of wild beasts in forests; some like the hollow caverns and passages that are seen in mines, with caverns extending towards the lower regions. Most of the hells are threefold, the upper one appearing within to be in dense darkness, ... while the lower ones appear fiery, ... Some hells present an appearance like the ruins of houses and cities after conflagrations, in which infernal spirits dwell and hide themselves. In the milder hells there is an appearance of rude huts, in some cases contiguous in the form of a city with lanes and streets, and within the houses are infernal spirits engaged in unceasing quarrels, enmities, fightings, and brutalities; while in the streets and lanes robberies and depredations are committed. In some of the hells there are nothing but brothels, disgusting to the sight and filled with every kind of filth and excrement. Again, there are dark forests, in which infernal spirits roam like wild beasts and where, too, there are underground dens into which those flee who are pursued by others. There are also deserts, where all is barren and sandy, ...
In regard to the number of the hells, there are as many of them as there are angelic societies in the heavens, since there is for every heavenly society a corresponding infernal society as its opposite. ... the heavenly societies are numberless,
...
the hells are innumerable, near to and remote from one another in accordance with the differences of evils generically, specifically, and particularly. There are likewise hells beneath hells. Some communicate with others by passages, and more by exhalations, and this in exact accordance with the affinities of one kind or one species of evil with others. "
 

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Wow. Not that it shocks anyone, but I totally dig this!

Nitpicks: the Abyss being 'thousands of miles arcoss.' The Earth's radius at the Equator is 6,378 km, so it's diameter is 12,756 km, or 7,296 miles. My point is...that makes the Abyss seem incredibly small to me...it could barely swallow the Earth. I would expect the Abyss to be tens or even hundreds of thousands of miles across, if it could even be measured.

So, planes are no longer infinite? Does the new cosmology assume that the material plane is only a single planet? I'm not advocating Spelljammer or anything, but where does the stars, sun, moon, an everything in the sky fit in? I think I'm having a hard time making a written case, but I just get the impression that they are scaling things too small...this entire cosmology (material, shadowfell, feywild, astral, and elemental) could all fit in our solar system.

But man, I love the flavor!
 
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So, we have :


feywild = ethereal + positive energy plane + standard faerie land. Low level adventuring is possible here. You can probably reach it with druidic or bardic spells.


shadowfell = ethereal + negative energy plane + plane of shadow. Mid level adventuring IMHO. You need a cleric to protect you from negative energy (if the cleric still has dominion upon this)


elemental chaos = elemental planes + limbo + abyss. This is about the primordial forces. High level play. The warlock probably find the source of his power here.


astral sea = astral plane. I don't really see the difference here. This is for epic level.
Of course, it's certainly possible to use astral sea for high level play, or shadowfel....


Now, the spells :
* etherealness. It probably does not exist anymore.
* shadow walk : yup ! an access to the plane of the dead. So, you can save your dead buddy... Allow you to enter buildings, because they are in ruins...
* fey walk : I guess there is something like that. Allow you to stride great distance in the wild.
* teleportation : probably use the astral sea ?
* plane shift : not all plane shift are equal. I think cleric will have an easier access to the astral, while wizards and warlock will be able to enter the primordial chaos. Necromancers will be shadow walker, and druids will access the Fey wild.

Now, the classes :
* bard, druids : obviously tied to the feywild. I hope druid kills the bard, take a lot of his stuff.
* shadowdancer : good shadow dancer will be a rarity...
* warlock : a connection with the elemental chaos or with the abyss ?
* sorcerer : no planar connection. Dragons, I guess.
 

I enjoyed this article. It was written with the right tone, answered all the most pertinent questions (rather than the "gnomic dispenser of acontextual tidbits" style) and had good content.

I was never a big fan of the "Great Wheel". I like the "Faerie" and "Land o' the Dead" stuff (minus the "Hokeynaem" convention of hokey names).

Now if we could jettison "Iron Sigil" Kung Fu Wizards into the Elemental whatsitsname, we'd be all good.
 

Wolfwood2 said:
It also works okay for Blink and spells like that.

I suspect blink won't be in 4E. It's pretty clear they're slicing and dicing the game to get rid of complicated rule-sets, particularly those exist only in the description of a spell. If you look at blink you can see how complicated it is compared to other spells. To me, that indicates it's likely on the chopping block.
 

Belorin said:
So, let's see if we can extrapolate what's coming.
It has already been said that the way alignments are used is changing, the Nine Hells are an astral dominion among other deific abodes in the Astral Sea meaning that they may no longer be connected as they were on the Great Wheel.
The Abyss, which gapes like a festering wound in the landscape of the Elemental Tempest, sounds like the Elemental Planes won't have defined borders, but a continuous landscape comprised of all 4 elements. (possibly containing the Para & Quasi-elemental palnes also)
Of course this is all supposition on my part.
From the Demons & Devils Thread
 


Hobo said:
:rolleyes: I'd like to think that disliking the Great Wheel does not automatically make one younger or more easily bored or impatient.

One (of many, IMO) complaints about the Great Wheel is that it doesn't easily allow for other planes to fit in, other than the clumsy patch of "just make it a demiplane!" This set-up allows me to use whatever plane I want. If I want a more Beyond Countless Doorways approach (which frankly, I would), where I can insert any plane I can come up with, then this specifically faciliates it.
Really
If anything I felt a problem with the Great Wheel was the hand holding...

And BCD was an immediate thought that sprang to my mind when reading this article.
 

I think I like this.

The Feywild reminds me of certain parts of Neverwinter Nights (which were really fun and thematically well flavoured).

The Shadowfell reminds me of Zelda's alternate co-existing world, where things are mostly the same, but darker. The Earthsea plane of the dead seems similar, which is cool.

My mind is already racing with ideas for the elemental plane. The accretion disk/black hole idea especially - imagine the four elements making the compass points, so you can still have your fiery depths and vast oceans of water, but then in between we get back the paraelements! Deserts between Earth and Fire, storm-wracked seas between air and water, etc. Give the whole thing a bit of a twist around the Abyss (give the black hole some angular momentum!) and you also get fire mixing with water for a mess of steam, earth with air for dust storms, and of course the messy mixes of three or all four. Love it.

Best of all, all these planes sound like they'll solve the problems of how every great wheel plane was aligned, what time did, what gravity did (ugh) and so on.
 

Doug McCrae said:
Feywild/Shadowfell closely resemble Birthright's Shadow World.
Little surprise there given the prominent role Rich Baker, creator of Birthright, is playing in design of 4E.
 

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