Design and Development: Cosmology

[Sir Brennen]

It could even be literal. At the time of Alexander the "known world" easily fit in an area thousands of miles across, with room to spare.

Yep. Especially if perceived from the point of view of a scholar within the "points of light" setting for whom even a distance of a hundred miles probably seems daunting. The Abyss may actually be light years across, but those dimensions are truly inconceivable to an NPC on the material plane in a typical D&D setting, so "thousands of miles" is about as close as they can get in describing the place.

 

[Dacileva]

I wonder whether they will have allowances for a 'far realm' sort of place in this cosmology?

If Tharizdun pulled the plug, and the Abyss is the world draining away, where is it draining to?

The Far Realm, that's where.

This is how it feels to me, too.

Think of four "zones" of reality. The first zone: the Prime. The second zone: its shadows, both vibrant (Feywild) and dark (Shadowfell). The third zone: the building blocks of the first two, both physical (Elemental Maelstrom/Abyss) and spiritual (Astral Sea). The fourth zone: the Primal Amorphia from which formed what little structure the astral and elemental planes offer (the Far Realm).

I like pretty much everything about this cosmology. Extensible, customizable, and not just a set of radially-sorted twisty little alignment planes, all alike. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

 

[Dacileva]

Not sure I like the new cosmology. Seems like they are making too many drastic changes to the D&D realm. At this point, what makes fourth edition "D&D" and not just an alternate system/setting such as Arcana Evolved? Just because they are keeping some of the names such as Mordenkainen (sp?) doesn't mean it's still D&D...

Nothing about the Great Wheel made it "D&D", either. It was just Greyhawk's cosmology. It only really works in a setting that places a strong emphasis on alignment as the building blocks of existence (particularly given that the sort order of the Outer Planes was absolutely alignment-based).

Similarly, the existence of proper names in 'core' were always just because Greyhawk was one of the first settings used there. IIRC, Mordenkainen even existed as different characters in multiple settings (Greyhawk and Blackmoor, before they were merged).

 

[Lobsopdoy]

But then where *would* it go? Maybe at the far edges of the astral sea?

I would personally put it on the "bottom" of the Astral Sea. Like how we have those super-freaky creatures that can only live deep on the bottom of the ocean. So the Far Realm is like the equivalent of the Mariana Trench.

That's just me though

 

[Reaper Steve]

I see that they've used Elemental Chaos, Elemental Tempest, and Elemental Maelstrom interchangeably.

FWIW, I prefer 'Elemental Tempest'...and it appears the last several posters do as well.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Very, very, VERY cool stuff. Shadowfell sounds an awful lot like Ravenloft.

I don't know if I'd go quite that far, but it did occur to me that a whole lot of Ravenloft content could be dumped there. The "trapped there" aspect doesn't work without some tweaks, but the rest seems like it'd be an OK fit, especially if you go out into uncharted territory in the real world, but discover whole islands and even a continent on the Shadowfell side of things. (Ravenloft's "Core," in other words.)

Malcanthet is an open question

I'm guessing she becomes a powerful devil or a demon lord of lust, but not succubi.

I've got to wonder if there's room for Sigil somewhere in this new set-up

An Astral Domain consisting of an infinite tall spire and a torus at the top would work. I think it loses something by not having a whole PLANE beneath it, but maybe it could be set high up in the Elemental Tempest instead.

The devil will be in the details, of course, but from what I've seen so far I imagine you could fit most of the Abyss as written (by me, ahem!) in Hordes of the Abyss into this new set-up.

Heck, folks like Dagon would actually fit in even better, since his lair could actually be on the border of the Abyss and the Elemental Tempest proper. (Or, alternately, given his ancient origins, VERY NEAR the bottom of wherever the Abyss leads to.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I wonder whether they will have allowances for a 'far realm' sort of place in this cosmology?

It doesn't sound as if it would be a particularly natural fit for a domain in the astral sea (because that would kinda make it a 'near realm', no?)

But then where *would* it go? Maybe at the far edges of the astral sea?

I think the far realm is the only one of the standard cosmological features that I'd be loathe to give up...

Where does it go now? It's just ... somewhere.

I like the idea of it being the "deep astral," and I LOVE the idea of it being where the Abyss ends up when even the Abyss is swallowed up.

But since no one's going to walk there under the new system (probably), and just shift there by tearing a hole through reality, it's wherever you want it to be, and uncomfortably close to the real world as far as characters are concerned.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

So levesl 1-7 might visit the Feywild, levels 8-16 the Shadowfell, 17-25 the Elemental Tempest, and 25-30 the Astral Sea.

I can't imagine they'd be levelled like that.-- that'd be awfully narrow. And isn't Keep on the Shadowfell a low (first?) level adventure?

 

[Rechan]

I can't imagine they'd be levelled like that.-- that'd be awfully narrow. And isn't Keep on the Shadowfell a low (first?) level adventure?

I'm not saying that you can't have a 20th level adventure in the Feywild. Merely that the place is "relatively" less dangerous than walking into the Realm of the Dead.

To put it another way:

Would you go into the Underdark at 1st level? Sure, you can have goblins down there, or some minor monster. But in general, the Underdark is full of Drow/Illithids/Other Monsters mid-higher level characters usually fight.

Each adventure site seems progressively more dangerous. Look:

A fomorian king’s castle in the dim, splendid caverns of the faerie Underdark.
The sinister castle of a shadar-kai lord, surrounded by a forest of black thorns.
A vast polar sea lit only by the cold glitter of icebergs and flickering auroras, in which the frozen stronghold of a frost giant warlock lies hidden.
A dragon-guarded githyanki fortress, drifting through the silver sea.

The tower of an eladrin enchanter.
A necromancer’s tower.
The crystalline tower of a long-dead archmage.
The black tower of Vecna, hidden in the depths of Pandemonium.

A mossy forest glade where evil druids spill the blood of hapless travelers over the roots of the thirsting trees.
The mist-shrouded winter realm of Letherna, where the fearsome Raven Queen rules over a kingdom of ghosts.
The diseased Abyssal continent where Demogorgon rules amid ruined temples and bloodthirsty jungle beasts.
The iron city of Dis, where the devil Dispater rules over a domain of misery and punishment in the second of the Nine Hells

A maze of thorns in which dryad briarwitches guard an evil relic.
A ruined city swept by long-ago plague and madness
A grim fortress monastery of githzerai adepts.
An artifact guarded by race of cursed warriors whose castle of adamantine overlooks the war-torn plains of Acheron.

My overall point is this: You can have an adventure in another plane at any level, where as before it seemed like you had to wait until you got Planeshift, or some ability that let you avoid getting incinerated when entering the Plane of Fire, etc.

 

[frankthedm]

Nothing about the Great Wheel made it "D&D", either.

Being used for 1e, 2e and 3e did. It was as tied to the setting as spells that boned you based on your alignment.