Design and Developments: Dirt, Rocks and 10' halls

[JohnSnow]

Oh wow man!! I'm so excited that 4th edition is going to finally allow me to place do-dads that the PC's can interact with during combat!! Up until now, the only thing that the rules have allowed is perfectly flat surfaces to which sensory information has been magically attached. Will there also be rules that will finally allow them to interact with stuff outside of combat too?

Okay, I'll turn the snark off now.

In all seriousness, what am I supposed to be impressed by here? What Mearls apparently wants to have everyone call "zones" seems like a pretty obvious thing to include in any body of work devoted to advising the DM/GM/Storyteller on how to create encounters.

Yeah, it IS pretty obvious, isn't it?

That said, it's pretty amusing that rules like that have never been in any of the previous D&D Dungeon Master's Guides, isn't it? They've sorta said: "Interesting terrain is good. Best of luck."

"Zones" (as they were called in Iron Heroes, or Terrain (as it appears to be called in 4e), is there as mechanical guidance for the DM for HOW to do this. Why on earth would you think that's a bad thing?

So while it may not be impressive, the concept is a first for the DMG. Which have never really included anything interesting in this vein before, except traps. I guess maybe there was a brief note about weather effects...

 

[Imaro]

Well, keep in mind that the doomspore is going to be a completely optional aspect of encounters. I also don't see how it even requires greater use of a map or miniatures, since if you want, you can just have it so the PC says "I duck into the mushrooms for cover", and the DM responds with "sure, but you are bloodied, so poison gets into your blood" and rolls the dice. It is only a part of tactical, rather than narrative movement, if you want to play in that style.

It requires a greater emphasis on minis and battlemats because it is based on an area effect. I can just see the arguments that will erupt because a player didn't realize he was in it's area of effect (especially if a different player triggers it). I mean anything can be handwaved...that doesn't dispute my point when playing by the RAW.

Also, the DM is going to need to pay attention to whether the PCs are bloodied or not regardless, so I would remove #4 from the list... Just taking advantage of creatures resistant to poison in combination with the doomspore saves you a lot of hassle.

Unless some or all of the PC's have some form of resistance or immunity. You seem to be constructing an artificial condition (only use doomspores with monsters that are resistant) to try and make this simple, the problem is the suggested increase in what an encounter can accomodate in 4e. It's no longer one room with one particular type of monster. So all kinds of monsters could pour into this room whille the PC's are fighting. I guess every monster in the dungeon should be immune to poison then, though I could easily see weaker monsters like goblins or kobolds cultivating this plant on purpose and knowing not to mess with it. This however, doesn't stop a player from knocking one of them into it.

Overall, if you think of doomspores being a major part of a encounter focused around them, rather than as a minor aspect of several other encounters, then it doesn't really add any complication the DM can't be ready for. As a whole, it isn't much more complicated than a single spell or monster.

But they're terrain...something to make combat more interesting. The doomspore in and of itself, IMHO, wouldn't be that interesting or challenging of an encounter...especially if a character has knowledge of them or has encountered them once before. IMHO, it's more complicated than a spell...but I can give you the monster thing. The problem is that it only reinforces what I'm saying. Running this thing is akin to running a seperate monster, when it's suppose to be an add-on to make combat a little more interesting. Just doesn't seem like a good example of streamlined mechanics as presented above. Too many if/thens.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I agree that it doesn't seem to be adding to streamlined combat, but I am of the opinion that more options to produce effects is always better than fewer.

That said, though, my 3.0 DMG describes several terrain types that can affect combat, gives some examples of interesting combats using terrain, etc. Interesting terrain has been part of the game since 1e (which did talk about cover, and attacking from higher ground, for instance -- clearly terrain effects). After all, it was in 1e that a giant crab lived in a bubble surrounded by hot water to cook you if you made a mistake during combat.

RC

 

[frankthedm]

Anyways, the interesting element here is that the "bloodied" effect is quite literal. A character who is bloodied has open gaping wounds, and a character who is not bloodied does not. I rather like the simplicity of it, and the potential flavor effect. I wonder if it has an impact on healing, or an impact on abilities that require the user's blood...

Expect barbarian rage to kick in when bloodied.

"Zones" (as they were called in Iron Heroes, or Terrain (as it appears to be called in 4e), is there as mechanical guidance for the DM for HOW to do this. Why on earth would you think that's a bad thing?

So while it may not be impressive, the concept is a first for the DMG. Which have never really included anything interesting in this vein before, except traps. I guess maybe there was a brief note about weather effects...

Another thing about zones is they require some rule tweaks, Notably making terrain more breakable from the get go. If in a 3e game I describe a room with slender pillars that are supporting a crumbling ceiling, unless the pilliar is in HORRID shape, a rules savey player knows there is almost no way it will be worth the time to hack through over 200 HP of stone.

Slender Pillar
These pillars are only a foot or two across, so they don’t occupy a whole square. A creature standing in the same square as a slender pillar gains a +2 cover bonus to Armor Class and a +1 cover bonus on Reflex saves (these bonuses don’t stack with cover bonuses from other sources). The presence of a slender pillar does not otherwise affect a creature’s fighting space, because it’s assumed that the creature is using the pillar to its advantage when it can. A typical slender pillar has AC 4, hardness 8, and 250 hit points

 

[Klaus]

You're going to need a bigger gaming table. Movement plays a lot more important role in 4E than earlier editions according to the latest news. They're talking about giant chasms and longer movement actions right? Personally I'm ecstatic. We play in a nice big game room in my basement and have two 4x6 tables side by side for our play space and we have a lot of 3D gaming terrain we toss up there (mostly from the Model Train store)..but wont' this be problematic for smaller gamer areas? Is your group ready?

Jay

YOU'RE GOING TO NEED A BIGGER BOAT
http://www.jawsmovie.com/1/sounds/bigboat.wav

Actually, you're going to need Fiery Dragon's Counter Collection Digital. You can then print your maps and creatures to the 0.5-inch-square = 5 feet scale. That way, an 8x10 inch sheet of paper can cover 16x20 squares, for 80x100 feet!

 

[ThirdWizard]

Oh wow man!! I'm so excited that 4th edition is going to finally allow me to place do-dads that the PC's can interact with during combat!! Up until now, the only thing that the rules have allowed is perfectly flat surfaces to which sensory information has been magically attached. Will there also be rules that will finally allow them to interact with stuff outside of combat too?

Okay, I'll turn the snark off now.

In all seriousness, what am I supposed to be impressed by here? What Mearls apparently wants to have everyone call "zones" seems like a pretty obvious thing to include in any body of work devoted to advising the DM/GM/Storyteller on how to create encounters.

So... to paraphrase... you're glad its in, but you're still complaining about it.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Perhaps I'm just in a cynical mood

While part of me is excited for some interesting stuff in combat, I am getting more and more of a sense that DMing 4e will not be easier than 3e. They are simplifying the stat blocks of monsters so you will be better able to remember their abilites and attacks, but you are going to have more of them to keep track of, plus terrain features. And these things only matter if you are bloodied, and those only matter if you moved more than 15 feet in a round...

I am wary that running a game will become a logistical nightmare.

 

[occam]

In practice, however, I almost never found it worth the effort. It's the perfect example of what I've started to call 3E's "cascading math." X impacts the numbers dealing with Y, which impacts the numbers dealing with Z. Poison attacks your Strength, so you need to take a moment to figure out how many points your Strength modifier drops. Then you have to remember to subtract that from your attack rolls, damage rolls, and skills. Poison attacks your Con, that's HP damage--figure out how much the modifier changed, multiply that by your level, subtract that from your total--oh, and don't forget that Fortitude save, which is going to impact your second save against the poison...

And don't forget to recalculate that 1.5x Str bonus to damage, or that you might have fallen out of rage early because your Con got hit, or.... Ugh. It just goes on and on, and people are bound to forget follow-on effects at least some of the time.

Honestly, if 4E gets rid of damages and buffs to ability scores, I'll be thrilled. And if that means that a few more attack types go straight to HP, that's a small price to pay, as long as there are still other interesting attack forms in the game that aren't attached to ability scores.

I'm with you.

 

[Scribble]

While part of me is excited for some interesting stuff in combat, I am getting more and more of a sense that DMing 4e will not be easier than 3e. They are simplifying the stat blocks of monsters so you will be better able to remember their abilites and attacks, but you are going to have more of them to keep track of, plus terrain features. And these things only matter if you are bloodied, and those only matter if you moved more than 15 feet in a round...

I am wary that running a game will become a logistical nightmare.

I think thats the essential change... They're changing it from "here is an encounter, it happens to be in this terrain..." to here is an encounter. Meaning you account for the terrain when preparing for the session in the same way you do with monsters now.

Terrain is now essentially a monster that doesn't move.

Thus the importance of the encounter generator.... It'll take into account the things you add onto the map and print you out a nice sheet with that info is my guess... I bet they'll also sell nice little terrain pieces for the Dungeon Tiles sets as well (with the stat cards included...)

 

[Clavis]

While part of me is excited for some interesting stuff in combat, I am getting more and more of a sense that DMing 4e will not be easier than 3e. They are simplifying the stat blocks of monsters so you will be better able to remember their abilites and attacks, but you are going to have more of them to keep track of, plus terrain features. And these things only matter if you are bloodied, and those only matter if you moved more than 15 feet in a round...

I am wary that running a game will become a logistical nightmare.

I think we may be encountering the downside of having professionals design our games. Sure, we can be sure that the math will be accurate, but we can't be sure that the time constraints and resources that on on real-world players will be taken into account. After all, when it's your job to play a game, you can afford to participate in a system that requires hours of prep and moves at a snail's pace. In fact, it's in your best interests to create such a system, because it keeps you in your job of playing and testing games! A team of professionals is never going to design an elegant, rules-light, fast-moving system, because play-testing would be over quickly, and then they'd all need to justify their jobs to Human Resources. That's why all the real innovations in game design have either been done by amateurs, or by people who weren't employees and didn't need to answer to anybody higher up on the corperate food chain.