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Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day
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<blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6847506" data-attributes="member: 5834"><p>I've thought about it some. I'm going to leave this to the rest of you. </p><p></p><p>This is such a disconnect from the rules concerning visibility by a DM, that I don't know what to think: </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nowhere save for creatures without darkvision would this apply disadvantage on ranged attacks. I doubt any of the others unless they are running members without darkvision were applying this penalty.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So far in our discussion <strong>Flamestrike</strong>, I have seen the following:</p><p>1. Set up giants in a room in an extremely disadvantageous fashion for them to melee and move amongst the party. Room way too small and PCs able to maintain a corner.</p><p></p><p>2. Assumed the huge giant ape does negligible damage when it hits harder than all but one party member. Why do the giants ignore the guy hitting them harder than all but one party member? I don't know.</p><p></p><p>3. Assumed it's easy to hit casters to end their spells even when moving to hit the caster is often a double move,requires moving fast hard hitting enemies that get AoOs, and all the casters are proficient in con saves with high cons.</p><p></p><p>4. Decided the squeezing rules are unimportant when a giant tries to step amongst the wolves and humans they are fighting given they have insufficient space to maneuver in this area.</p><p></p><p>5. Set up slaad a double move away from melee.</p><p></p><p>6. Assumed a party can't quickly get rid of a <em>cloudkill</em> with a <em>dispel magic</em> from an abjurer while he is standing in it. </p><p></p><p>7. Not accounted for the bard with devilsight winning initiative and moving into <em>counterspell</em> range.</p><p></p><p>8. Not accustomed to grid combat that does require you to set up rooms so players can see where things are moving.</p><p></p><p>9. Decided to blame the DM for using tactics you recommended like going after the caster while having to move around a giant ape, which is not easy to do when using grid combat. </p><p></p><p>10. Set up the giants to attack targets that would put them both in <em>hypnotic pattern</em> range on a grid map even using their reach, then blamed the DM that took the time to map it out correctly for not playing them right.</p><p></p><p>11. Metagamed the slaad knowing the bard was going to <em>counterspell</em> them because your tactic didn't work like you thought it would. And likely wouldn't have worked even had they shifted to poison which would have barely tickled the cleric and most of the party with good Con saves and much higher chance of making both saves. Which means the average damage of 10d8 if both <em>cloudkill</em> spells has went off would have been 45, halved 22, and 11 to the dwarf compared to the 56 from double <em>fireballs</em>. If one of the <em>cloudkill</em> was countered, it would have done a whopping 23 or 11 to the entire party and 5 to the dwarf. Con saves for the entire party all in paladin aura:</p><p>Bard: +12</p><p>Cleric: +13</p><p>wizard: +12</p><p>Paladin: +12</p><p>EK: +12</p><p></p><p>Dex saves for party:</p><p>Bard: +6</p><p>Cleric: +4</p><p>Wizard: +6</p><p>Paladin: +4</p><p>EK: +9</p><p></p><p>Math is much more favorable for damage from the <em>fireballs</em>.</p><p></p><p>13. Unaware that dim light is only lightly obscured and only penalizes Perception checks, not attack rolls of any kind for creature with Darkvision.</p><p></p><p>I'll stop there. Look <strong>Flamestrike</strong>, I'm sure you have fun in your games. You're a creative guy that makes cool encounters. I give you kudos for doing so. I liked your idea. You obviously play theater of the mind given your understanding of grid combat and how it affects the game. If your players like theater of the mind, cool. My players like grid combat and want to see all the pieces moving. Which means I run things like Squeezing and have to ensure things like giants and wolves don't take up too much space to limit enemy combat movement in an area.</p><p></p><p>I'm not going to spend more time arguing over this with you. We're both just a couple of guys that like playing D&D. But it's obvious you don't play this game with optimizers. And that's fine. Heck, most players probably have more fun playing in a loose game with players more focused on having fun than optimizing. Even my players sometimes grouse about too much optimization. That being said if you follow the rules in the PHB including optional character build rules and use grid combat and the players are optimizing, they will rip the game apart as I have done to your first few encounters (not to mention the iron golem might not even have landed a single blow before it was dead). They have too many advantages for a DM to easily overcome much of the time.</p><p></p><p>I tip my hat to you for an excellent idea for an adventure. I'd advise you to brush up on the rules a bit. You may be screwing your players with incorrect rulings and letting enemies move a little too freely to their advantage. It was good chatting with you, but we run the rules very differently.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celtavian, post: 6847506, member: 5834"] I've thought about it some. I'm going to leave this to the rest of you. This is such a disconnect from the rules concerning visibility by a DM, that I don't know what to think: Nowhere save for creatures without darkvision would this apply disadvantage on ranged attacks. I doubt any of the others unless they are running members without darkvision were applying this penalty. So far in our discussion [b]Flamestrike[/b], I have seen the following: 1. Set up giants in a room in an extremely disadvantageous fashion for them to melee and move amongst the party. Room way too small and PCs able to maintain a corner. 2. Assumed the huge giant ape does negligible damage when it hits harder than all but one party member. Why do the giants ignore the guy hitting them harder than all but one party member? I don't know. 3. Assumed it's easy to hit casters to end their spells even when moving to hit the caster is often a double move,requires moving fast hard hitting enemies that get AoOs, and all the casters are proficient in con saves with high cons. 4. Decided the squeezing rules are unimportant when a giant tries to step amongst the wolves and humans they are fighting given they have insufficient space to maneuver in this area. 5. Set up slaad a double move away from melee. 6. Assumed a party can't quickly get rid of a [I]cloudkill[/I] with a [I]dispel magic[/I] from an abjurer while he is standing in it. 7. Not accounted for the bard with devilsight winning initiative and moving into [I]counterspell[/I] range. 8. Not accustomed to grid combat that does require you to set up rooms so players can see where things are moving. 9. Decided to blame the DM for using tactics you recommended like going after the caster while having to move around a giant ape, which is not easy to do when using grid combat. 10. Set up the giants to attack targets that would put them both in [I]hypnotic pattern[/I] range on a grid map even using their reach, then blamed the DM that took the time to map it out correctly for not playing them right. 11. Metagamed the slaad knowing the bard was going to [I]counterspell[/I] them because your tactic didn't work like you thought it would. And likely wouldn't have worked even had they shifted to poison which would have barely tickled the cleric and most of the party with good Con saves and much higher chance of making both saves. Which means the average damage of 10d8 if both [I]cloudkill[/I] spells has went off would have been 45, halved 22, and 11 to the dwarf compared to the 56 from double [I]fireballs[/I]. If one of the [I]cloudkill[/I] was countered, it would have done a whopping 23 or 11 to the entire party and 5 to the dwarf. Con saves for the entire party all in paladin aura: Bard: +12 Cleric: +13 wizard: +12 Paladin: +12 EK: +12 Dex saves for party: Bard: +6 Cleric: +4 Wizard: +6 Paladin: +4 EK: +9 Math is much more favorable for damage from the [I]fireballs[/I]. 13. Unaware that dim light is only lightly obscured and only penalizes Perception checks, not attack rolls of any kind for creature with Darkvision. I'll stop there. Look [b]Flamestrike[/b], I'm sure you have fun in your games. You're a creative guy that makes cool encounters. I give you kudos for doing so. I liked your idea. You obviously play theater of the mind given your understanding of grid combat and how it affects the game. If your players like theater of the mind, cool. My players like grid combat and want to see all the pieces moving. Which means I run things like Squeezing and have to ensure things like giants and wolves don't take up too much space to limit enemy combat movement in an area. I'm not going to spend more time arguing over this with you. We're both just a couple of guys that like playing D&D. But it's obvious you don't play this game with optimizers. And that's fine. Heck, most players probably have more fun playing in a loose game with players more focused on having fun than optimizing. Even my players sometimes grouse about too much optimization. That being said if you follow the rules in the PHB including optional character build rules and use grid combat and the players are optimizing, they will rip the game apart as I have done to your first few encounters (not to mention the iron golem might not even have landed a single blow before it was dead). They have too many advantages for a DM to easily overcome much of the time. I tip my hat to you for an excellent idea for an adventure. I'd advise you to brush up on the rules a bit. You may be screwing your players with incorrect rulings and letting enemies move a little too freely to their advantage. It was good chatting with you, but we run the rules very differently. [/QUOTE]
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Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day
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