D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[iserith]

This thread is a continuation of the discussion from "Test of High Level 5E: Design 4 or 5 lvl 13 PCs for 6 to 8 encounter adventuring day" started by [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION]. Now that the details have been hashed out, we will begin the debate in this thread on how well a group of PCs will perform in challenges designed in accordance with the guidelines recommended by Chapter 3 of the DMG. Subsequent posts by [MENTION=6777052]BoldItalic[/MENTION] will contain an index of links to the characters, the exposition, and some relevant interaction. Following that, I will re-post the first challenge as designed by [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION] and debate may begin.

The debate format is as follows:

1. Describe how you would run the challenge as designed including any rulings you would make at your table.

2. Describe how you would expect your group (or yourself) to approach the encounter if it were ran as described in 1.

3. Estimate how many and which resources the PCs might be expected to expend given 1 and 2 (a range based on contingencies may be appropriate).

Optional: Describe how you would change the challenge to increase or decrease its difficulty as per the DMG guidelines and/or how a more or less optimized party of PCs might handle the challenge.​

Debate will continue on a particular posted challenge for a period of 24 to 48 hours before a new challenge is posted. The goal here is a fair and fun discussion. We don't expect everyone will agree on the results, but look forward to seeing what insights the discussion may bring.

Thank you in advance for your good faith participation.

 

[BoldItalic]

Index of Character Sheets

These were the five characters used for the start of the scenario. When discussing how you would handle subsequent encounters, however, you can use these or any other team of five PCs of your own devising. But don't start with a fresh team for each encounter; the encounters are cumulative.

Constraints: Point buy, PHB and WotC splat books but no UA and no homebrews. DM assigned magic items (examples here, here and here)

• Jubali the Bard
• Dom the Cleric
• Thomas Bushbriar
• Bedrock Trelawny (Paladin)
• Edward the Diviner

Alternative Characters

• Ryken the Paladin (Celtavian)
• Tim the Archer (Celtavian)
• Seebo the Wizard (Celtavian)

• Fred the Fighter (Lord Twig)
• Nightflower (Wood Elf Rogue) (Lord Twig)
• Malloren (Cleric) (Lord Twig)
• Ceric Bale (Wizard) (Lord Twig)
• Bethiana (Wood Elf Ranger) (Lord Twig)

Updated Versions

• Jubali = Half Elf Bard-10/Warlock-3
• Dom = Hill Dwarf Life Cleric-13
• Seebo = Forest Gnome Wizard-13
• Tim = Wood Elf Eldritch Knight
• Ryken = Half-Elf Paladin-12/Sorcerer-1

 

[BoldItalic]

Adventure Introduction and IC Interaction

This exercise is primarily about the game and the way it is balanced, rather being intended to create a play-though of an adventure. However, for those who, like me, enjoy a bit of narrative, here is an index of the posts in the original thread leading up to the start of the first encounter, where IC dialogue was used to develop the player characters and to draw out information from the quest-giver (the wizard Mrykyn, who was representing the DM).

#45 Adventure Introduction

First, there was some negotation between Myrkyn and various PCs. Note that some of these posts are not entirely IC but contain OOC comments as well.

#54 Jubali responds to Myrkyn's initial offer of the quest
#76 Myrkyn replies to Jubali
#77 Jubali seems to resent the offer
#78 Myrkyn tries harder but is getting annoyed
#89 Bedrock enters and offers to take the quest instead
#94 Myrkyn accepts Bedrock's offer
#106 Bedrock speaks again. Edward enters and speaks.
#113 Myrkyn narrates some lore to Bedrock and Edward.

There then follows a sequence where some of the PCs talk amongst themselves without involving Mrykyn, Jubali or Dom whose players were offline at the time. Note that this leads to some disconnect in the narrative.

#194 Bedrock and Edward discuss the others
#197 Thomas enters
#210 Bedrock asks Thomas to do something
#214 Thomas already has it covered
#220 Edward and Bedrock comment
#222 Edward explains the ritual he is going to cast
#227 Thomas asks for clarification

(to be continued)

 

[iserith]

Reposted from here:

Encounter 1:

Use large cavern map: 80' by 40'. The main chamber has a large gaping hole in the roof, about 80’ up that leads outside, which lets in considerable natural light. PC’s appear in south eastern side in a teleportation circle. The main room is otherwise empty aside from some rubble in the western section of the chamber. The whole lair has been thoroughly looted, but a PC who spends time searching this chamber finds a scroll of telekinesis in a scroll case that was left behind under the rubble (Perception DC 18). Award advantage to any PC specifically searching the rubble.


The dracolichs lair has been long abandoned by Dragotha and is currently inhabited by a hunting party of 2 Frost Giants and 4 Winter wolves that have taken shelter from the devastation outside. The winter wolves den in the south eastern side of the chamber where the PCs arrive. When the PC’s arrive the giants are to the NW quietly debating what to do next. They are spooked by the caverns and the recent goings on in the area (and by the fact they are in a dracolichs lair), and are alert when the PCs arrive. Any PC who speaks giant can make out what is being said (they are currently debating if the dracolich is going to return or not, and are extremely hungry, they are very concerned with what happened to white plume mountain outside).


If the giants or the wolves are alerted, they instantly attack (they are on edge). The wolves always seek to catch as many PCs in cold breath attacks, and then attempt to gang up on a single PC at a time if possible. Gorbarth (see below) directs his companion to engage any obvious enemy spell casters or dwarves (in giant). On subsequent turns he then directs the wolves to assist him fighting his target (they understand giant).


One of the Giants (Gorbarth) is noticeably bigger than his companion (add +2 to his Str and Con score, and increase his HP to 150). He carries a family heirloom frost giant sized axe called Frostreaver (magical Greataxe that requires attunement and deals an extra 1d12 cold damage on a successful hit) that looks as if it’s been carved out of a single piece of jagged ice. Increase his CR by 1 to reflect these changes.


Gorbarth is the leader of this warparty and while he has no interest in parlay initially (he’s hungry and sees the PCs as food) he’s spooked and wary by the recent events in the area. Any PC that speaks giant can break off hostilities and attempt to negotiate with him as an action (Persuasion DC 15 to let them pass; under no circumstances will he join the PCs on an expedition). He can also be intimidated to back down and let the PCs pass (DC 15 charisma intimidation, adjust the DC according to circumstances of the battle and the apparent strength of the PCs). Any PC that bluffs the giants by representing to be working for Dragotha as part of this negotiation or intimidation gets advantage on this check (Gorbarth is terrified of the dracolich) as do any PCs that offer the giant sufficient food for him and his warband. He automatically stands down and lets the PCs pass if his companion is killed and he is reduced to less than 50 HP.


Adjusted XP difficulty = MEDIUM (the winter wolves have a CR of 10 less than the PCs, so do not count in the XP multiplier for encounter difficulty).


Treasure: The Giants carry 250gp each and Gorbarth wears a family ring valued at 500gp. The axe is likely too big for the PCs to use. It would be worth up to 10,000gp to a collector. It is huge (15’ long) and weighs 250lbs.


DM Notes: This encounter is designed to drain resources from the party, and should require the party to consider a short rest at its conclusion, although smart/ social/ face type PCs could be able to negotiate with the giants and conserve party resources appropriately. The party should have 4 hours and 45ish minutes to complete this quest at the conclusion of the encounter. It is a 2 hour journey to WPM from this cave, leaving the party with anywhere from 2-4 short rests (depending on how swiftly they can manage to travel the 2 hours to the next encounter location, possibly expending more resources to do so).


Notes: I'll leave this open for discussion for some time and then move onto encounter 2.

 

[Flamestrike]

Reserved

Link to original setup for Encounter 1 here.

I need to get full encounter notes from @Flamestrike via PM at which point I will post them here. Please stand by. Once posted, Flamestrike can post all future encounters.

Ill update and post when I get home from work tonight in this post.

 

[iserith]

I have reposted Encounter 1. Please feel free to being the debate as outlined in the original post at this time.

 

[Azurewraith]

Currently brain storming a party for a run. So far I have a dwarf barbarian pole arm master, debating an oh monk as well

 

[hawkeyefan]

Are discussions supposed to assume use of the party of 5 PCs listed above? Or are we to discuss based on our own groups, or just based on general assumptions of a 13th level party?

1. Describe how you would run the challenge as designed including any rulings you would make at your table.
Given the situation described for the giants, I'd certainly play them aggressively, but not suicidal. The party should be very obviously capable as soon as fighting breaks out, and Gorbarth would likely realize this once a couple of the wolves were dead. So if the PCs killed two of the wolves, then I'd have Gorbarth try to parley and put an end to combat (after all, he now has two wolves to eat). However, if the PCs did not impress upon him their ability quickly, then I'd have him go all out to put them down quickly.


2. Describe how you would expect your group (or yourself) to approach the encounter if it were ran as described in 1.
As a player myself, given the parameters of the adventure, I would do everything within my power to avoid this pointless fight. It will waste time and resources, and could possibly require a short rest afterward, which would be a foolish expenditure of time at this point, given the constraints of the adventure. A tongues spell would come in handy if no one spoke giant, and I would rely on the party "face" (the bard, most likely) to try and persuade the giants to let us pass. I would even go so far as to pay them for safe passage if what they demanded was within reason. As I said, this conflict is meaningless...there's no need to be drawn into this fight.

My players, however, are a bit more murder-hobominded than I am, so I'd be surprised if they didn't immediately engage the enemies. My players are pretty tactical when it comes to combat (as opposed to tactful when it comes to avoiding it) so they'd first seek to get out of the dangerous spot they're in with all of them being exposed to multiple breath weapons. So they'd disperse, with the melee types moving toward the Giants and the caster types moving away from them. Ultimately, I'd expect them to defeat these foes pretty soundly, but I also expect that it would cost them a decent amount of resources.

3. Estimate how many and which resources the PCs might be expected to expend given 1 and 2 (a range based on contingencies may be appropriate).
I'd expect the frontline PCs to lose a quarter to half of their HP depending on rolls. It could easily be worse than that depending on the initiative and how the rolls all went, but I'd expect this range. The other characters would likely lose more like a quarter HP, and would likely have to spend a few low level spells and one mid level spell.

Given the initial set up and circumstances, unless almost everything goes the PCs' way, there's no way to avoid taking some pretty big hits. I would hope that the resources spent would not require a short rest. I think it's reasonable to assume that could be avoided, and is more an outside possibility depending on rolls favoring the giants. But in lieu of a short rest, the party would have to use a decent amount of resources to heal, so that would be a handful of spells from the cleric and bard, and probably a small chunk of the paladin's lay on hands.

All in all, viewing things from an optimization standpoint, the simplest way to resolve this situation would be through diplomacy. Based on the party above, none speak giant, but the diviner has tongues memorized, so a single 3rd level spell could be all that was required to resolve this situation. Diviner casts that on the bard, and she uses her +14 persuasion to talk them all out of a fight.

Anything more than a single 3rd level spell would be sub-optimal. I would expect most groups to spend a good deal resources more than that, especially if they tend to be more combat focused.

 

[Azurewraith]

Are discussions supposed to assume use of the party of 5 PCs listed above? Or are we to discuss based on our own groups, or just based on general assumptions of a 13th level party?

1. Describe how you would run the challenge as designed including any rulings you would make at your table.
Given the situation described for the giants, I'd certainly play them aggressively, but not suicidal. The party should be very obviously capable as soon as fighting breaks out, and Gorbarth would likely realize this once a couple of the wolves were dead. So if the PCs killed two of the wolves, then I'd have Gorbarth try to parley and put an end to combat (after all, he now has two wolves to eat). However, if the PCs did not impress upon him their ability quickly, then I'd have him go all out to put them down quickly.


2. Describe how you would expect your group (or yourself) to approach the encounter if it were ran as described in 1.
As a player myself, given the parameters of the adventure, I would do everything within my power to avoid this pointless fight. It will waste time and resources, and could possibly require a short rest afterward, which would be a foolish expenditure of time at this point, given the constraints of the adventure. A tongues spell would come in handy if no one spoke giant, and I would rely on the party "face" (the bard, most likely) to try and persuade the giants to let us pass. I would even go so far as to pay them for safe passage if what they demanded was within reason. As I said, this conflict is meaningless...there's no need to be drawn into this fight.

My players, however, are a bit more murder-hobominded than I am, so I'd be surprised if they didn't immediately engage the enemies. My players are pretty tactical when it comes to combat (as opposed to tactful when it comes to avoiding it) so they'd first seek to get out of the dangerous spot they're in with all of them being exposed to multiple breath weapons. So they'd disperse, with the melee types moving toward the Giants and the caster types moving away from them. Ultimately, I'd expect them to defeat these foes pretty soundly, but I also expect that it would cost them a decent amount of resources.

3. Estimate how many and which resources the PCs might be expected to expend given 1 and 2 (a range based on contingencies may be appropriate).
I'd expect the frontline PCs to lose a quarter to half of their HP depending on rolls. It could easily be worse than that depending on the initiative and how the rolls all went, but I'd expect this range. The other characters would likely lose more like a quarter HP, and would likely have to spend a few low level spells and one mid level spell.

Given the initial set up and circumstances, unless almost everything goes the PCs' way, there's no way to avoid taking some pretty big hits. I would hope that the resources spent would not require a short rest. I think it's reasonable to assume that could be avoided, and is more an outside possibility depending on rolls favoring the giants. But in lieu of a short rest, the party would have to use a decent amount of resources to heal, so that would be a handful of spells from the cleric and bard, and probably a small chunk of the paladin's lay on hands.

All in all, viewing things from an optimization standpoint, the simplest way to resolve this situation would be through diplomacy. Based on the party above, none speak giant, but the diviner has tongues memorized, so a single 3rd level spell could be all that was required to resolve this situation. Diviner casts that on the bard, and she uses her +14 persuasion to talk them all out of a fight.

Anything more than a single 3rd level spell would be sub-optimal. I would expect most groups to spend a good deal resources more than that, especially if they tend to be more combat focused.

You can use any hypothetical party you want

 

[hawkeyefan]

You can use any hypothetical party you want

Okay, I'll keep that in mind for future encounters.

If that's the case, then a party with a PC who could speak giant could resolve the encounter without expending any resources at all. However, given the unlikelihood of that, I still would come to the conclusion that a tongues spell is all that needs to be spent to resolve this encounter.