D&D General Lego Sandbox vs Open Sandbox (and other sandbox discussion)

[MichaelSomething]

But I'm too lazy to do all that world building/sand making....

 

[Li Shenron]

How do you run a Sandbox when you run one, and is it more along the lines of a Lego or Open Sandbox?

Definitely Lego Sandbox.

I see a sandbox as a collection of scattered elements: locations, NPCs, creatures, objects and stories.

Without stories to hook onto, I fear the "No Man's Sky effect", the famous MMORPG which first hit with its immense amount of content, and then disappointed because there wasn't much to do.

I do not think that having stories available in a sandbox takes away players' agency, they are pretty much still free to decide whether to follow a story or not.

 

[aco175]

I feel that there should always be stories going on. I recall reading something about NPCs and always having something important to them that need right now. The guy driving the wagon on the road is trying to get to town before dark since he was attacked by bandits last night or he has medicine to bring to help with the outbreak. The urchin on the street the PCs stop to get directions from might be hungry or need a new blanket. The shopkeeper needs a new roof or his wife twisted he leg and cannot help out as much. This is what the world is worrying about and not just there to aid the PCs.

The players talk to the wagon guy and he might give them a ride, or tell them how to get to the bandit lair, or think they might be more bandits and try to flee. Everything is an opportunity for the players to do something or they could just let the wagon pass and walk to town not knowing there is a plague goin on or get attacked by bandits. Or nothing can happen and they feel like nothing is going on.

 

[Enrahim]

I think I would describe the most sandboxy games I have run as more of the opposite of the mix suggested in OP. Rather than starting out an adventure that the players break out of and find themself in the sandbox, I dump them into an almost completely barren sandbox with just an absolute minimum of detail. (An empty prison cell, the forrest village of one of the characters only described by the player during character creation, a rowboat on open sea). Then based on player prompts things are formed in the sand where there are space. Looking for a tavern? It is right around the corner. You want to buy a screwdriver in the hardware store? Sure, and cue an encounter where having that turn out to be essential later in the session. Player leaves town for a few weeks? A world spanning event putting all clerics in a temporary coma with an important vision related to the major theme of the campaign and the character's goals.

As parts of the sandbox become more defined play go more toward having fun with the elements already created. And first when things start to get a bit stale and we want a change of pacing we agree to drop a prewritten adventure into the sandbox.

 

[Enrahim]

I also want to add that I think there is a huge difference between a preestablished setting sandbox, a sandbox that is being formed piecewise by the DM as part of prep, and a sandbox that is mostly formed in play. I think this is a seperate dimension to the size of the "blocks" that is being introduced. A DM could have adventures ready they can spring on the right event in play, introduce it in their planning for a session based on what they think is fitting for the region the players are in or have up front mapped out the entire theme park.

 

[aco175]

I also want to add that I think there is a huge difference between a preestablished setting sandbox, a sandbox that is being formed piecewise by the DM as part of prep, and a sandbox that is mostly formed in play. I think this is a seperate dimension to the size of the "blocks" that is being introduced. A DM could have adventures ready they can spring on the right event in play, introduce it in their planning for a session based on what they think is fitting for the region the players are in or have up front mapped out the entire theme park.

I'm not sure I would like to run or play in a sandbox where everything is being created on the fly. There should be the large blocks in place, at least for something more than a 1-shot or intro game. There should be the idea of a village with an inn and temple and a few NPC names. There things and people can be expanded on as they are interacted with with the smaller blocks. If the innkeeper names James suddenly had an eyepatch when the PCs first meet him, fine. If he suddenly has a problem with rats in the basement, fine. Even if there was no basement before, fine. But there should be the expectation of a village someplace with an inn.

I know many including myself can make up a lot of stuff, but is it the best or even the funnest way? Is it fair the the players and DM?

 

[Charlaquin]

There's a big difference between linear and railroad. Railroad is quite a negative description of an authoritarian GM who micromanages everything the players do. No decision the players make really matter, if they are allowed to make any decisions at all. A linear campaign dictates the general outline of the game but doesn't force specific decisions and doesn't rely on quantum ogres that give only the illusion of decision making. There are lines with linear campaigns and you're expected to color between them, a railroad gives you the one crayon you have to use to trace a predefined outline.

I’m not sure how useful this definition of railroad is. It basically just means “constrained in ways I don’t like.” It’s more of a judgment than a description of any actual design principle. That’s not necessarily a problem - “boring” is also a judgment, that doesn’t make it not a useful term. But trying to argue what does or doesn’t fit the definition of “boring” is silly, because it’s a subjective judgement, rather than a measurable design quality.

 

[AlViking]

I’m not sure how useful this definition of railroad is. It basically just means “constrained in ways I don’t like.” It’s more of a judgment than a description of any actual design principle. That’s not necessarily a problem - “boring” is also a judgment, that doesn’t make it not a useful term. But trying to argue what does or doesn’t fit the definition of “boring” is silly, because it’s a subjective judgement, rather than a measurable design quality.

I would find "You have no autonomy, no choice you make will ever matter, the outcome of every encounter and combat is predetermined" boring and unfun, although I never mentioned that in my definition. It's also significantly different from a linear campaign and considered one of the worst styles of play for RPGs and something good GMs will avoid.

There's constrained and so tightly constrained that you're just there for a GM to tell a predetermined story.

 

[Charlaquin]

I would find "You have no autonomy, no choice you make will ever matter, the outcome of every encounter and combat is predetermined" boring and unfun, although I never mentioned that in my definition. It's also significantly different from a linear campaign and considered one of the worst styles of play for RPGs and something good GMs will avoid.

There's constrained and so tightly constrained that you're just there for a GM to tell a predetermined story.

But what I’m saying is, what one person might see as a linear adventure with an appropriate amount of autonomy, another person might see as "You have no autonomy, no choice you make will ever matter, the outcome of every encounter and combat is predetermined".

 

[AlViking]

But what I’m saying is, what one person might see as a linear adventure with an appropriate amount of autonomy, another person might see as "You have no autonomy, no choice you make will ever matter, the outcome of every encounter and combat is predetermined".

I'm saying there's a distinct difference. If you want to insult a GM call their game a railroad. If you want to discuss a campaign with predefined events call it linear.

I'm not going to argue about this any more, but this is not just a personal opinion, railroads are widely accepted as bad form. Google it if you don't accept my definition but you'll come across blogs like this one: Hot Topic 1 - Railroading: What does it mean and should it be used or avoided? | Gamemaster University Blog