D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[Lord Twig]

If I was playing the giants and they realised what happened, giant one would simply shake his friend out of the spell. Then giant two would attack

Perhaps now have FG1 instead shake FG2 awake, and then FG2 will attack on the same initiative count?

Sounds like a fair tactic to employ, particularly after missing the wizard twice this round.

Giant 1 (with the cold weapon) went first in the initiative order, then giant 2. Giant 1 failed the save, giant 2 succeeded. Even though they go on the same initiative count it wouldn't be fair to let them change their order whenever they want. For example, if my fighter and wizard both had an initiative of 15 (and both have the same Dex) I wouldn't let the fighter go first one round then let the wizard go first the second round. If the PCs can't do it, the enemies can't do it either.

Plus it was already unlucky that the giant made his save at all! No need to make it even worse by allowing them to switch initiatives.

Giant 2 had every reason to believe he would be able to flatten the robe wearing human. The wizard looks to have an AC of 12, +2 for the cover from the fighter is 14. The giant can't see the Mage Armor (+3 AC) and didn't know the fighter could give him disadvantage with his shield since he hadn't used that ability yet. Even then the second strike would have hit except the wizard threw up a Shield spell raising his combined AC to 22. I felt it was a reasonable risk for the giant to take.

Still, at this point it is obvious that he is going to have trouble getting to the wizard, so using an action to bring back his leader makes sense. He will take an opportunity attack from the ranger, but she isn't a heavy hitter, and he can go around the fighter to get to the other giant. The remain winter wolf should distract the party long enough that he can make it a two giant fight again by next round.

And speaking of the ranger... I gave my party the same items as the ones you gave to the other group, but the bard items really don't fit her. Any chance you could give her different items? She is Dex based and has the defensive fighting style. She switches between a rapier and a longbow in combat. No shield.

And in case it was missed in my edit above. Where should I put my characters? This thread? Or somewhere else?

 

[Celtavian]

+9 and +10 to hit respectively, two attacks each - still possible.

I would likely have them simply ignore the dodging paladin and walk over to the ranged PC or Caster that is actually hurting the giants, take the attack of opportunity on the way.

The paladin is only dodging until the active wolves are taken care of. Only needs to hold them two or three rounds and one round has already been spent. The archer won't be hurting them at that point. I doubt your giants adjust that quickly. It is certainly up to you.

Again, I wouldnt taget the Ape. I'd ignore it in favor of spellcasters and archers that are actually hurting me. Its attack of opportunity is meaningless to the giants.

Now I am home. A giant ape has 137 hit points. It gets two attacks with +9 to hit and does 3d10+6 damage per hit. So the attack is meaningless to the giant? Fine by me. He can try to chase around the archer while the ape beats on him. The ape should hit roughly 3 times per two rounds for 66 points of damage. That's a win for us. All the archer has to do is stay a move ahead for a few rounds, the giant will die even faster trying to chase the eldritch knight while doing less damage. We preserve the ape's hit points as a forward scout. We can just send him and his huge hit points ahead to absorb damage and draw out ambushes. I'd be ok if you spent the giants actions attempting to pursue the archer so he was getting beat on by the giant ape's "meaningless" attacks and AoO. If the giant took an AoO, he would boost the giants damage every two rounds to 88. If that's meaningless damage, then ok.

I highly doubt that. The giants played smart are not going to let themselves get pinned down by apes and dodging tanks. They're going to go after dangerous priority targets that are huriting them.

They'll be dead by then. Once the targets start hurting them, they'll be dead in two rounds. Prior to that they'll be hurting the wolves, I expect the wolves to go after the one's hurting them. The paladin has already shifted to attacking by round 3.

I would be more than happy to run this against your optimised party, and I would be prepared to bet that you would expend a fair bit more resources than 3 spell slots to overcome the encounter. You have 450 HP worth of monsters to overcome.

450 hit points is not a lot. Not sure why you think it is for an optimized party outputting a 100 plus damage per round.

33 Ape
54 archer
13 cleric
30 bard
12 paladin.

DPR is roughly 142 points. So that is about 4 rounds of combat. I've increased the length of the combat to account for a few rounds of crowd control. I'm assuming average rolls by all parties. A few bad rolls or good rolls either way can shorten or lengthen the combat requiring more resources.

I would ignore a dodging PC and attack someone else as often as not. Particularly easy with giants as they have reach and most PCs dont. Even then an Attack of opportunity on an AC 15/ 150 HP monster isnt a big deal.

How soon will you ignore them? Immediately? Because the paladin is dodging for perhaps 2 rounds, maybe 3. And the archer and bard don't start attacking the giant until round 3 or 4. The wolves have to be dealt with first. I find it odd that when you read my strategy, you don't read where the breaks occur. The paladin is not dodging every round. If you think the ape doesn't do enough damage to keep the giant ape's attention, I must consider that you haven't had polymorph used much in your campaign. A lucky round by the ape including an AoO is 66 damage on average. That is more than the archer is doing. Do you really ignore the ape?

Polymorph is a really powerful spell. I would even say a bit overpowered in my opinion. If you can dispel it though, then you're good. It's amazing in brute encounters like this one though.

+1 crossbow, 10 flaming bolts (deal an extra 1d6 fire damage) an elven cloak, 2 potions of healing and boots of the winterlands.

Elven cloak? You are kind. I have to admit you have not skimped on the magic. I'd be pretty happy with those items at 13th level.

 

[Flamestrike]

The paladin is only dodging until the active wolves are taken care of. Only needs to hold them two or three rounds and one round has already been spent. The archer won't be hurting them at that point. I doubt your giants adjust that quickly. It is certainly up to you.



Now I am home. A giant ape has 137 hit points. It gets two attacks with +9 to hit and does 3d10+6 damage per hit. So the attack is meaningless to the giant? Fine by me. He can try to chase around the archer while the ape beats on him. The ape should hit roughly 3 times per two rounds for 66 points of damage. That's a win for us. All the archer has to do is stay a move ahead for a few rounds, the giant will die even faster trying to chase the eldritch knight while doing less damage. We preserve the ape's hit points as a forward scout. We can just send him and his huge hit points ahead to absorb damage and draw out ambushes. I'd be ok if you spent the giants actions attempting to pursue the archer so he was getting beat on by the giant ape's "meaningless" attacks and AoO. If the giant took an AoO, he would boost the giants damage every two rounds to 88. If that's meaningless damage, then ok.





They'll be dead by then. Once the targets start hurting them, they'll be dead in two rounds. Prior to that they'll be hurting the wolves, I expect the wolves to go after the one's hurting them. The paladin has already shifted to attacking by round 3.



450 hit points is not a lot. Not sure why you think it is for an optimized party outputting a 100 plus damage per round.

33 Ape
54 archer
13 cleric
30 bard
12 paladin.

DPR is roughly 142 points. So that is about 4 rounds of combat. I've increased the length of the combat to account for a few rounds of crowd control. I'm assuming average rolls by all parties. A few bad rolls or good rolls either way can shorten or lengthen the combat requiring more resources.





How soon will you ignore them? Immediately? Because the paladin is dodging for perhaps 2 rounds, maybe 3. And the archer and bard don't start attacking the giant until round 3 or 4. The wolves have to be dealt with first. I find it odd that when you read my strategy, you don't read where the breaks occur. The paladin is not dodging every round. If you think the ape doesn't do enough damage to keep the giant ape's attention, I must consider that you haven't had polymorph used much in your campaign. A lucky round by the ape including an AoO is 66 damage on average. That is more than the archer is doing. Do you really ignore the ape?

Polymorph is a really powerful spell. I would even say a bit overpowered in my opinion. If you can dispel it though, then you're good. It's amazing in brute encounters like this one though.



Elven cloak? You are kind. I have to admit you have not skimped on the magic. I'd be pretty happy with those items at 13th level.

Yeah - when the Paladin cowers behind his shield, and Im within 40' of a PC that has hurt me or the wolves, I ignore the Paladin and crunch the PC that hurt me.

Even if I didnt, AC 23 isnt that hard to hit with 2 attacks at +9/10 at disadvantage.

And your ape gets one attack. Assume it hits and deals 25 damage. Then the Giant smashes the archer, bard or wizard for 2 attacks at +9 dealing 3d12+6 and pins them down. Dont get me wrong, I might attack the Ape (or the Paladin). But as DM I approach the encounter from 2 broad objectives - 1) play the monsters to the best of their knowledge and abilities (in order to) 2) deplete party resources.

I certainly wouldnt waste turns wailing on hard to hit PCs while the glass cannons sit back doing their thing. I wouldnt expect you to do the same as a PC (Im sure you would ignore meat shields to get to the priority targets).

On that topic, your Paladin should have sentinel. It matches his tactics well.

 

[Celtavian]

Encouner 2

Question: Given the light situation, how are the Death Slaad seeing the party when they enter? They have Blindsight and Darkvision out to 60 feet? Are they blindly throwing fireballs as soon as they hear someone at the entrance or waiting for the PCs to close to 60 foot visible range? Wouldn't the Devilsight bard with the 21 Perception spot them before the slaad spotted us allowing us to ambush them? If I sent the bard and eldritch knight in stealthing first, wouldn't they likely surprise the slaad given the visibility conditions? The bard has a +12 on Stealth and the eldritch knight has an elven cloak with a +9 or 10 on Stealth. Wouldn't they have a good chance of spotting the shimmering forms and preparing an ambush?

DM Perspective: I think I would place the slaad 60 feet from the entrance so their blindsight and darkvision was effective, sure the invisibility providing advantage on stealth rolls as well as the disadvantage of the gloomy conditions covered me. This would ensure I saw someone enter the area rather than risk the odd chance someone with better sight than me entered. I would have one slaad fireball immediately and the other cloudkill the entrance. This would immediately damage both targets and create a serious hazard for any party members entering later. Cloudkill does damage at the start of the turn and the first time anyone enters, meaning anyone else coming in the doorway or starting their turn in the area will take cloudkill damage. Given the slaad's blindsight, they can operate with enemies in the cloudkill. This would ensure the party needs to move and move quickly to get out of the cloudkill, likely moving to an area where I can more quickly engage them or hit them with another fireball against a group given how cloudkill limits their movement options.

 

[BoldItalic]

Round two!

Human Champion Sword and Board Fighter (41 damage)
Wood Elf Thief Rogue (13 damage)
Human Light Cleric (10 damage)
Human Abjurer Wizard (No damage, Arcane Ward down to 26 hit points)
Wood Elf Beast Master Ranger (10 damage)
Cooper the Wolf (20 damage)

Should I just put my characters up in this thread? Or somewhere else and link them?

If you post them in the other thread, or here, I will edit in links to them in post #2 of this thread. It could even turn into a source of level 13 pregens

 

[Flamestrike]

Question: Given the light situation, how are the Death Slaad seeing the party when they enter? They have Blindsight and Darkvision out to 60 feet? Are they blindly throwing fireballs as soon as they hear someone at the entrance or waiting for the PCs to close to 60 foot visible range? Wouldn't the Devilsight bard with the 21 Perception spot them before the slaad spotted us allowing us to ambush them? If I sent the bard and eldritch knight in stealthing first, wouldn't they likely surprise the slaad given the visibility conditions? The bard has a +12 on Stealth and the eldritch knight has an elven cloak with a +9 or 10 on Stealth. Wouldn't they have a good chance of spotting the shimmering forms and preparing an ambush?

The slaad are actively searching for PCs so they get active stealth opposed by perception.

The cloak doesnt help here (it only helps with visual stealth checks which this isnt - at 70' away, they cant be seen). Your scouts can hide in the first 10' darkness. But from there they cant see more than 30-60' themselves.

Once they approach within 60' of the Slaadi (the range of blindsight and darkvision) they have nothing to hide 'in'. They might be moving quietly, but they get seen automatically.

So its almost certain that you 2 scouts enter the room at 70' and then as soon as one walks quietly more than 10' into the room it is detected by the Slaad (who then attack). The PC will be surprised (depending on that PCs opposed perception check to detect the Slaad before it attacks).

If you sent the Bard in first, Jubilai could (and probabaly would) detect the Slaad first due to devils sight + high perception score. Its very likely that he would roll a 5 or better on a D20 (his perception was +12 from memory) to detect the slaad.

The only question from there is do the slaads perception rolls defeat the Bard and Archers stealth checks (no advantage for either).

 

[Celtavian]

Yeah - when the Paladin cowers behind his shield, and Im within 40' of a PC that has hurt me or the wolves, I ignore the Paladin and crunch the PC that hurt me.

Moving defensively is not cowering, just as it is not cowering when one does it in martial arts or fencing. It is taking a defensive posture, yet still engaged. The paladin is not running. He certainly isn't looking scared. He is calmly engaging the giant in a defensive posture, likely egging him on, and avoiding his attacks to buy time for the wolves to be taken out.

Even if I didnt, AC 23 isnt that hard to hit with 2 attacks at +9/10 at disadvantage.

Actually it is hard to hit. You hit on a 14 of 13 or better. Rolling two dice and taking the lower of the two. That is roughly 1 hit of every three. Or two hits per six attacks. The giant gets two attacks per round, so over three rounds he would hit twice with average rolls.

And your ape gets one attack. Assume it hits and deals 25 damage. Then the Giant smashes the archer, bard or wizard for 2 attacks at +9 dealing 3d12+6 and pins them down. Dont get me wrong, I might attack the Ape (or the Paladin). But as DM I approach the encounter from 2 broad objectives - 1) play the monsters to the best of their knowledge and abilities (in order to) 2) deplete party resources.

A giant ape gets two attacks and a third one if the giant moves allowing an AoO. The archer can attack at a 120 foot range. He can move 30 feet away from his previous location perhaps putting the giant in two move range avoiding an attack. It is a tactic known as kiting. I think you mentioned it. I would use it.

I'm ok if he smashes the cleric. The cleric has 133 hit points and a 20 AC. He heals himself every time he heals someone else. He'll be ok. The main people that want to avoid hit points are the archer and the bard. Them losing too many hit points would likely require at least a 2nd level prayer of healing and ten minutes. And I don't like to waste spell slots.

I certainly wouldnt waste turns wailing on hard to hit PCs while the glass cannons sit back doing their thing. I wouldnt expect you to do the same as a PC (Im sure you would ignore meat shields to get to the priority targets).

I still think arrogant giants might take a few rounds to beat on the paladin or attempt to do so. All I need is a few rounds.

On that topic, your Paladin should have sentinel. It matches his tactics well.

If I were a multiclass paladin, I may take Sentinel. Often players do multiclass paladin after obtaining 6th level protective aura. Right now the paladin in our group hit 6th level and multiclassed into fighter (champion). I just grew weary of constructing five 13th level characters, so kept it simple. In our actual group, you are right. The paladin would have likely taken Sentinel and multiclassed. They almost always do. The ranger archer just multiclassed into fighter eldritch knight. He wanted to stack Archery Style with Close Quarters Combat to stack ranged bonuses. I hope Close Quarters Combat gets changed before release. It's too easy to stack for ranged attackers, though it is nice to finally have a fighting style for ranged spellcasters.

 

[Celtavian]

The slaad are actively searching for PCs so they get active stealth opposed by perception.

The cloak doesnt help here (it only helps with visual stealth checks which this isnt - at 70' away, they cant be seen). Your scouts can hide in the first 10' darkness. But from there they cant see more than 30-60' themselves.

Once they approach within 60' of the Slaadi (the range of blindsight and darkvision) they have nothing to hide 'in'. They might be moving quietly, but they get seen automatically.

So its almost certain that you 2 scouts enter the room at 70' and then as soon as one walks quietly more than 10' into the room it is detected by the Slaad (who then attack). The PC will be surprised (depending on that PCs opposed perception check to detect the Slaad before it attacks).

If you sent the Bard in first, Jubilai could (and probabaly would) detect the Slaad first due to devils sight + high perception score. Its very likely that he would roll a 5 or better on a D20 (his perception was +12 from memory) to detect the slaad.

The only question from there is do the slaads perception rolls defeat the Bard and Archers stealth checks (no advantage for either).

That would be interesting. A roll would have to determine. If they hear, do you have them cast fireballs at the location they hear? Or move forward to ensure they see the target? Then we roll initiative I'm assuming?

 

[Flamestrike]

Moving defensively is not cowering, just as it is not cowering when one does it in martial arts or fencing. It is taking a defensive posture, yet still engaged. The paladin is not running. He certainly isn't looking scared. He is calmly engaging the giant in a defensive posture, likely egging him on, and avoiding his attacks to buy time for the wolves to be taken out.



Actually it is hard to hit. You hit on a 14 of 13 or better. Rolling two dice and taking the lower of the two. That is roughly 1 hit of every three. Or two hits per six attacks. The giant gets two attacks per round, so over three rounds he would hit twice with average rolls.



A giant ape gets two attacks and a third one if the giant moves allowing an AoO. The archer can attack at a 120 foot range. He can move 30 feet away from his previous location perhaps putting the giant in two move range avoiding an attack. It is a tactic known as kiting. I think you mentioned it. I would use it.

I'm ok if he smashes the cleric. The cleric has 133 hit points and a 20 AC. He heals himself every time he heals someone else. He'll be ok. The main people that want to avoid hit points are the archer and the bard. Them losing too many hit points would likely require at least a 2nd level prayer of healing and ten minutes. And I don't like to waste spell slots.



I still think arrogant giants might take a few rounds to beat on the paladin or attempt to do so. All I need is a few rounds.



If I were a multiclass paladin, I may take Sentinel. Often players do multiclass paladin after obtaining 6th level protective aura. Right now the paladin in our group hit 6th level and multiclassed into fighter (champion). I just grew weary of constructing five 13th level characters, so kept it simple. In our actual group, you are right. The paladin would have likely taken Sentinel and multiclassed. They almost always do. The ranger archer just multiclassed into fighter eldritch knight. He wanted to stack Archery Style with Close Quarters Combat to stack ranged bonuses. I hope Close Quarters Combat gets changed before release. It's too easy to stack for ranged attackers, though it is nice to finally have a fighting style for ranged spellcasters.

I hear what youre saying, but again if played out, I assure you you would expend more than 3 spell slots of resources in this fight.

 

[Azurewraith]

That would be interesting. A roll would have to determine. If they hear, do you have them cast fireballs at the location they hear? Or move forward to ensure they see the target? Then we roll initiative I'm assuming?

I would just have them drop fireballs on the sound I mean it does cover a decent area.