Azurewraith
Explorer
I should of said anty hypothetical party in the guidelines standard array, average HP,only first party content (no ua)
D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day
- Thread starter iserith
- Start date
Assessment
DM Perspective: I'd like to note I would have counted the Winter Wolves as part of the multiple for xp. They are an unusually powerful low CR creature with Pack Tactics and a moderate damage breath weapon. The massed power of the a pack of winter wolves is extremely dangerous. Four winter wolves might well deal considerable damage to even lvl 20 characters due to their capabilities. I think time has proven that Pack Tactics and breath weapons that don't require attack rolls are some of the most potent abilities in 5E.
I run things pretty much as Flamestrike ran them absent the ability to parlay with giants. Frost Giants tend to have a stereotypical Viking type of culture and Winter Wolves are pack animals, which means they pick a weak target like one not wearing metal and rip them apart. I would have gone after the wizard or bard first with the wolves using the breath weapon on as many massed PCs as possible. The giant would likely have picked the closest possible target. Each giant would have taken a separate target not engaged with the wolves. They do have some sense of honor and want to brag of their victories. They would have focused on killing in melee only switching to rocks if there was no one to battle with their axe or the archer was proving to effective. If the giants saw the open use of flashy magic, they would seek to kill that target being fearful of the power of magic and directed the wolves to attack the caster using openly flashy magic like a blast or obvious direct damage spell.
Player Perspective: I will be assessing using the original party I planned to use.
1. Half-elf paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 13
2. Fighter Eldritch Knight 13 Archer Crossbow Expert
3. Hill Dwarf Cleric of Life 13
4. Bard (Lore) 10/Warlock (Fey Pact) 3
5. Wizard (Abjurer) 13
Battlefield layout: We're at the back of a cavern with the exit nearly 80 feet away which is three moves while taking actions and one move/dash and one move over two rounds. Likely difficult terrain at the entrance. We have two large brute giants with rock throwing capability and fast moving winter wolves on all sides. Giants are straight-forward, high damage brutes and wolves are pack animals that will attack a target as a group including helping the giants who are likely viewed as the alphas of their group.
Key tactical objectives: Crowd control a portion of the group using hypnotic pattern.
Transform via polymorph the wizard into a giant ape for additional tanking capability and hit point absorption. Hopefully this attracts the attention of at least one giant limiting the hit point damage to one of the tanks.
Eldritch Knight, Bard, and Cleric focus fire the still operating wolves. The Eldritch Knight is capable of firing in melee and will fight the wolves in melee battle with high hit points and an AC 17 with shield spell possible.
I believe this fight could be completed with the use of a 3rd level slot by the bard. A 4th level slot from the wizard. And maybe a 1st level paladin slot using shield of faith.
DM Perspective: I'd like to note I would have counted the Winter Wolves as part of the multiple for xp. They are an unusually powerful low CR creature with Pack Tactics and a moderate damage breath weapon. The massed power of the a pack of winter wolves is extremely dangerous. Four winter wolves might well deal considerable damage to even lvl 20 characters due to their capabilities. I think time has proven that Pack Tactics and breath weapons that don't require attack rolls are some of the most potent abilities in 5E.
I run things pretty much as Flamestrike ran them absent the ability to parlay with giants. Frost Giants tend to have a stereotypical Viking type of culture and Winter Wolves are pack animals, which means they pick a weak target like one not wearing metal and rip them apart. I would have gone after the wizard or bard first with the wolves using the breath weapon on as many massed PCs as possible. The giant would likely have picked the closest possible target. Each giant would have taken a separate target not engaged with the wolves. They do have some sense of honor and want to brag of their victories. They would have focused on killing in melee only switching to rocks if there was no one to battle with their axe or the archer was proving to effective. If the giants saw the open use of flashy magic, they would seek to kill that target being fearful of the power of magic and directed the wolves to attack the caster using openly flashy magic like a blast or obvious direct damage spell.
Player Perspective: I will be assessing using the original party I planned to use.
1. Half-elf paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 13
2. Fighter Eldritch Knight 13 Archer Crossbow Expert
3. Hill Dwarf Cleric of Life 13
4. Bard (Lore) 10/Warlock (Fey Pact) 3
5. Wizard (Abjurer) 13
Battlefield layout: We're at the back of a cavern with the exit nearly 80 feet away which is three moves while taking actions and one move/dash and one move over two rounds. Likely difficult terrain at the entrance. We have two large brute giants with rock throwing capability and fast moving winter wolves on all sides. Giants are straight-forward, high damage brutes and wolves are pack animals that will attack a target as a group including helping the giants who are likely viewed as the alphas of their group.
Key tactical objectives: Crowd control a portion of the group using hypnotic pattern.
Transform via polymorph the wizard into a giant ape for additional tanking capability and hit point absorption. Hopefully this attracts the attention of at least one giant limiting the hit point damage to one of the tanks.
Eldritch Knight, Bard, and Cleric focus fire the still operating wolves. The Eldritch Knight is capable of firing in melee and will fight the wolves in melee battle with high hit points and an AC 17 with shield spell possible.
I believe this fight could be completed with the use of a 3rd level slot by the bard. A 4th level slot from the wizard. And maybe a 1st level paladin slot using shield of faith.
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Azurewraith
Explorer
My group are going to run the gauntlet next Sunday ill let you guys know how it goes
Flamestrike
Legend
I think you would be insanely lucky for this to be the only resource drain on the party. Even just 2 hits from the giants, and a few breath weapons that land (and this is do-able in just a single round of combat) and youre looking at 100+ HP loss also (requiring further resource drain in healing magic, potions and HD - the latter of which requires a short rest).
You have Paladin smites to factor in too.
And I note your points on the CR3 Wolves, but I disagree. It's a DM judgement call here. Their XP was added into the overall difficulty of the encounter, but the final difficulty was multiplied for 2 combatants and not for 6 (which would have inflated the difficulty of the encounter far above the threat posed by a single CR 8 a single CR 9 and 4 CR 3s to a party of 5 x 13th level PCs).
Without the extra multiplication, the encounter came out at a Medium encounter (almost a hard one). Which from an eyeball of the creatures vs 5 x 13th level PCs feels about right. I (as DM) would expect the PCs to overcome the Giants and Wolves, expending a few resources but not be seriously challenged barring some very unlucky rolls (giants and wolves fluke initiative, score some lucky crits and the the PCs flub dex saves vs brath weapons). Which (in your hypothetical above) is exactly what happened; you overcame the giants, expending a few resources, dusted yourselves off and kept going with the encounter. Most parties that ran through this encounter should overcome this challenge with minimal difficulty and around 15 percent resource drain.
It's a judgement call so there will be different opintions. The wolves in my judgement added 2,800 xp to the difficulty of [(CR8 + CR9)x1.5] which 'feels' about the right mark for mine.
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Here is how it went with my group of characters so far...
I have a group of good aligned characters that required no convincing to head off and save the world. They would have done it for free because it's the right thing to do. They still accepted the money though.
The group makeup is as follows:
Human Champion Sword and Board Fighter
Wood Elf Thief Rogue
Human Light Cleric
Human Abjurer Wizard
Wood Elf Beast Master Ranger
My wizard did not have a means of teleportation available (he has Plane Shift though! ), so they availed themselves of Myrkyn's teleport focus. They went in with weapons ready, but no spells other than the wizard's mage armor up. Once there the cleric thought that maybe she should have scryed ahead first (she has the spell ready), but too late now. With the battle cry of the frost giants making their intentions pretty clear, and the fact that no one spoke Giantish, and the fact that frost giants and winter wolves are evil, my adventurers did not hesitate, they attacked back.
The fighter went first (remarkable athlete and 14 Dex gives him a +5 Initiative) and attacked the wolf next to him. He did 39 damage, but failed to knock the wolf prone with his shield (Shield Master feat).
The giants went next. Based on the map that Flamestrike provided I swapped my characters in for their counterparts. I determined that they would attack the fighter (AC 20) and rogue (AC 19) as the closest targets. The cleric used her Flare of Warding to impose disadvantage (4 uses left now) on the big giant's first attack, which caused it to miss, but the second attack hit the fighter for 36 damage. The smaller giant attacked the rogue and hit once for 25 damage, which the rogue reduced to 13 with Uncanny Dodge.
Next the wizard went and used Hypnotic Pattern on the two giants (based on the map he can easily get them in a 30' cube without hitting friends). Despite only a 30% chance of resisting the smaller giant saved, but it did take out the bigger threat.
The rogue used a bonus action to disengage the giant and moved to the opposite side of the wolf that the fighter attacked and managed to finish it off with exactly 36 points of damage (which was a little lucky since it was a couple points more than her average). This also took her off the front line.
The winter wolves went next. Based on the spacing of the characters and the relative small size of a 15' cone they were each only able to get two characters in the area, plus the ranger's wolf in one area. One hit the fighter and rogue, which the fighter blocked with his shield and the rogue evaded, so no damage there. The second was able to get the cleric, the ranger and the ranger's wolf (since none were able to move out of the way yet). The cleric and ranger saved, but the wolf failed and took 10, 10 and 20 points of damage respectively. The third hit the wizard and fighter for only 10 damage, and both saved so they only took 5. The wizard's Arcane Ward absorbed the damage. (Does he need to make a concentration check if the ward takes the damage?)
The cleric cast Spiritual Weapon, smacked the wolf in front of her, drew her mace of disruption and smacked it again for a total of 17 damage.
Finally the ranger went, she and her wolf attacked the winter wolf on the cleric. The wolf with Pack Tactics easily hit twice for 25 damage, but the winter wolf easily made the two DC11 Str checks to keep from falling prone. The ranger then hit with her rapier for another 12 damage.
And that was the round! Overall my groups ability to use reactions to reduce damage was extremely helpful. Damage was good, but none are optimized for extreme damage output. It really hurt that the wizard didn't take out both giants with Hypnotic Pattern. If he had this battle would basically be over.
Final note on the ranger's companion... I can see it being a major resource sink. It has been discussed before, but I wanted to see it in action. Honestly it's Dex save is the same as a couple other characters, but the problem is all its saves are that bad.
Round two coming up!
I have a group of good aligned characters that required no convincing to head off and save the world. They would have done it for free because it's the right thing to do. They still accepted the money though.
The group makeup is as follows:
Human Champion Sword and Board Fighter
Wood Elf Thief Rogue
Human Light Cleric
Human Abjurer Wizard
Wood Elf Beast Master Ranger
My wizard did not have a means of teleportation available (he has Plane Shift though!
), so they availed themselves of Myrkyn's teleport focus. They went in with weapons ready, but no spells other than the wizard's mage armor up. Once there the cleric thought that maybe she should have scryed ahead first (she has the spell ready), but too late now. With the battle cry of the frost giants making their intentions pretty clear, and the fact that no one spoke Giantish, and the fact that frost giants and winter wolves are evil, my adventurers did not hesitate, they attacked back.The fighter went first (remarkable athlete and 14 Dex gives him a +5 Initiative) and attacked the wolf next to him. He did 39 damage, but failed to knock the wolf prone with his shield (Shield Master feat).
The giants went next. Based on the map that Flamestrike provided I swapped my characters in for their counterparts. I determined that they would attack the fighter (AC 20) and rogue (AC 19) as the closest targets. The cleric used her Flare of Warding to impose disadvantage (4 uses left now) on the big giant's first attack, which caused it to miss, but the second attack hit the fighter for 36 damage. The smaller giant attacked the rogue and hit once for 25 damage, which the rogue reduced to 13 with Uncanny Dodge.
Next the wizard went and used Hypnotic Pattern on the two giants (based on the map he can easily get them in a 30' cube without hitting friends). Despite only a 30% chance of resisting the smaller giant saved, but it did take out the bigger threat.
The rogue used a bonus action to disengage the giant and moved to the opposite side of the wolf that the fighter attacked and managed to finish it off with exactly 36 points of damage (which was a little lucky since it was a couple points more than her average). This also took her off the front line.
The winter wolves went next. Based on the spacing of the characters and the relative small size of a 15' cone they were each only able to get two characters in the area, plus the ranger's wolf in one area. One hit the fighter and rogue, which the fighter blocked with his shield and the rogue evaded, so no damage there. The second was able to get the cleric, the ranger and the ranger's wolf (since none were able to move out of the way yet). The cleric and ranger saved, but the wolf failed and took 10, 10 and 20 points of damage respectively. The third hit the wizard and fighter for only 10 damage, and both saved so they only took 5. The wizard's Arcane Ward absorbed the damage. (Does he need to make a concentration check if the ward takes the damage?)
The cleric cast Spiritual Weapon, smacked the wolf in front of her, drew her mace of disruption and smacked it again for a total of 17 damage.
Finally the ranger went, she and her wolf attacked the winter wolf on the cleric. The wolf with Pack Tactics easily hit twice for 25 damage, but the winter wolf easily made the two DC11 Str checks to keep from falling prone. The ranger then hit with her rapier for another 12 damage.
And that was the round! Overall my groups ability to use reactions to reduce damage was extremely helpful. Damage was good, but none are optimized for extreme damage output. It really hurt that the wizard didn't take out both giants with Hypnotic Pattern. If he had this battle would basically be over.
Final note on the ranger's companion... I can see it being a major resource sink. It has been discussed before, but I wanted to see it in action. Honestly it's Dex save is the same as a couple other characters, but the problem is all its saves are that bad.
Round two coming up!
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Flamestrike
Legend
Encounter 2:
Encounter environment: The entry room to the dugeon demi-plane of blackrazor. As noted above, all walls and floors are made of a near indestructable black stone that eminates a gloomy light. Vison is reduced to 30' for creatures without darkvision, and 60 or 120' (as appropraite) for creatures with darkvision. Regardless, all visibility is reduces to dim light (advantage on stealth checks). Devils sight is unaffected and works normally. Treat this as a 9th level spell effect. The demipalne is not connected to the ethereal plane, so ethereal travel is not possible.
The above encounter conditions persist for the remaining encounters.
The room is 40' wide (N-S) and 70' long (E-W). A black portal is on the middle of the eastern wall - it is through this portal that the PCs arrive. A 10' wide coridoor extends onwards into the dungeon from the centre of the west wall. The room slopes gently upwards towards the western exit.
Encounter conditions: This is the entry room to the demiplane. PCs who step into the vortex outside appear in the demiplane infront of the nearest empty space near the portal on the east wall. As noted above, its possible that a PC may send a familiar in to scout the demiplane first in which case the Slaadi kill it (leaving the PC unaware due to the fact it happens on a different plane) or possibly the PCs may enter one at a time... this could lead to a very challenging encounter if they do so. The DM should giver the PCs ample time to enter the demiplane as a group; a PC entering on his own could be quickly overwhelmed.
Creatures: 2 Death slaads (beings allied to the entity Blackrazor aeons ago) have recently plane shifted into this chamber. They currently lurk on either side of the western exit of the room. They are invisible and communicate to each other with telepathy.
Compare the passive perception of any PC entering this room with the Slaads stealth DC (17; including advantage from the dim light). A PC that notices them sees two faint shimmerings in the gloom of the chamber and is not surprised on the first round of combat.
The Slaadi instantly initiate combat with fireballs, repeating this tactic on turn two. If the Slaad remain unengaged on turn 3, one uses major image to create illusion of another death Slaadi adjacent to any obvious spellcasters or ranged characters as a distraction (a PC watching this tactic can make a DC 15 Arcana check to notice the ruse and realise that Slaadi are masters of illusion and not of summoning magic. A PC that fights an illusory salad gains a DC 15 investigation check on a successful attack that strikes the slaad to also notice the ruse). The other slaad either closes to melee or drops a cloudkill on the party. These creatures of chaos cannot be bargained with, pursue any PCs that leave the room (using fly if needed, and invisibilty) and fight to the death.
Adjusted difficulty 17700 XP (Hard). XP to award: 11,800
Treasure: None.
Encounter environment: The entry room to the dugeon demi-plane of blackrazor. As noted above, all walls and floors are made of a near indestructable black stone that eminates a gloomy light. Vison is reduced to 30' for creatures without darkvision, and 60 or 120' (as appropraite) for creatures with darkvision. Regardless, all visibility is reduces to dim light (advantage on stealth checks). Devils sight is unaffected and works normally. Treat this as a 9th level spell effect. The demipalne is not connected to the ethereal plane, so ethereal travel is not possible.
The above encounter conditions persist for the remaining encounters.
The room is 40' wide (N-S) and 70' long (E-W). A black portal is on the middle of the eastern wall - it is through this portal that the PCs arrive. A 10' wide coridoor extends onwards into the dungeon from the centre of the west wall. The room slopes gently upwards towards the western exit.
Encounter conditions: This is the entry room to the demiplane. PCs who step into the vortex outside appear in the demiplane infront of the nearest empty space near the portal on the east wall. As noted above, its possible that a PC may send a familiar in to scout the demiplane first in which case the Slaadi kill it (leaving the PC unaware due to the fact it happens on a different plane) or possibly the PCs may enter one at a time... this could lead to a very challenging encounter if they do so. The DM should giver the PCs ample time to enter the demiplane as a group; a PC entering on his own could be quickly overwhelmed.
Creatures: 2 Death slaads (beings allied to the entity Blackrazor aeons ago) have recently plane shifted into this chamber. They currently lurk on either side of the western exit of the room. They are invisible and communicate to each other with telepathy.
Compare the passive perception of any PC entering this room with the Slaads stealth DC (17; including advantage from the dim light). A PC that notices them sees two faint shimmerings in the gloom of the chamber and is not surprised on the first round of combat.
The Slaadi instantly initiate combat with fireballs, repeating this tactic on turn two. If the Slaad remain unengaged on turn 3, one uses major image to create illusion of another death Slaadi adjacent to any obvious spellcasters or ranged characters as a distraction (a PC watching this tactic can make a DC 15 Arcana check to notice the ruse and realise that Slaadi are masters of illusion and not of summoning magic. A PC that fights an illusory salad gains a DC 15 investigation check on a successful attack that strikes the slaad to also notice the ruse). The other slaad either closes to melee or drops a cloudkill on the party. These creatures of chaos cannot be bargained with, pursue any PCs that leave the room (using fly if needed, and invisibilty) and fight to the death.
Adjusted difficulty 17700 XP (Hard). XP to award: 11,800
Treasure: None.
Flamestrike
Legend
Here is how it went with my group of characters so far...
I have a group of good aligned characters that required no convincing to head off and save the world. They would have done it for free because it's the right thing to do. They still accepted the money though.
The group makeup is as follows:
Human Champion Sword and Board Fighter
Wood Elf Thief Rogue
Human Light Cleric
Human Abjurer Wizard
Wood Elf Beast Master Ranger
My wizard did not have a means of teleportation available (he has Plane Shift though!
The fighter went first (remarkable athlete and 14 Dex gives him a +5 Initiative) and attacked the wolf next to him. He did 39 damage, but failed to knock the wolf prone with his shield (Shield Master feat).
The giants went next. Based on the map that Flamestrike provided I swapped my characters in for their counterparts. I determined that they would attack the fighter (AC 20) and rogue (AC 19) as the closest targets. The cleric used her Flare of Warding to impose disadvantage (4 uses left now) on the big giant's first attack, which caused it to miss, but the second attack hit the fighter for 36 damage. The smaller giant attacked the rogue and hit once for 25 damage, which the rogue reduced to 13 with Uncanny Dodge.
Next the wizard went and used Hypnotic Pattern on the two giants (based on the map he can easily get them in a 30' cube without hitting friends). Despite only a 30% chance of resisting the smaller giant saved, but it did take out the bigger threat.
The rogue used a bonus action to disengage the giant and moved to the opposite side of the wolf that the fighter attacked and managed to finish it off with exactly 36 points of damage (which was a little lucky since it was a couple points more than her average). This also took her off the front line.
The winter wolves went next. Based on the spacing of the characters and the relative small size of a 15' cone they were each only able to get two characters in the area, plus the ranger's wolf in one area. One hit the fighter and rogue, which the fighter blocked with his shield and the rogue evaded, so no damage there. The second was able to get the cleric, the ranger and the ranger's wolf (since none were able to move out of the way yet). The cleric and ranger saved, but the wolf failed and took 10, 10 and 20 points of damage respectively. The third hit the wizard and fighter for only 10 damage, and both saved so they only took 5. The wizard's Arcane Ward absorbed the damage. (Does he need to make a concentration check if the ward takes the damage?)
The cleric cast Spiritual Weapon, smacked the wolf in front of her, drew her mace of disruption and smacked it again for a total of 17 damage.
Finally the ranger went, she and her wolf attacked the winter wolf on the cleric. The wolf with Pack Tactics easily hit twice for 25 damage, but the winter wolf easily made the two DC11 Str checks to keep from falling prone. The ranger then hit with her rapier for another 12 damage.
And that was the round! Overall my groups ability to use reactions to reduce damage was extremely helpful. Damage was good, but none are optimized for extreme damage output. It really hurt that the wizard didn't take out both giants with Hypnotic Pattern. If he had this battle would basically be over.
Final note on the ranger's companion... I can see it being a major resource sink. It has been discussed before, but I wanted to see it in action. Honestly it's Dex save is the same as a couple other characters, but the problem is all its saves are that bad.
Round two coming up!
Awesome report mate - Im chuffed to see my encounters getting played out!
Round two!
Human Champion Sword and Board Fighter (41 damage)
Wood Elf Thief Rogue (13 damage)
Human Light Cleric (10 damage)
Human Abjurer Wizard (No damage, Arcane Ward down to 26 hit points)
Wood Elf Beast Master Ranger (10 damage)
Cooper the Wolf (20 damage)
With the giant on the fighter being mentally held by the wizard, it became a priority to make sure the wizard didn't lose concentration. With that in mind the fighter first used a bonus action for Second Wind (healed 20 points), then moved away from his own wolf, drawing an opportunity attack (which missed), attacked the wolf on the wizard for 46 damage (he only misses on a 1 and one roll was a 19, which is a crit for him). Then moved back to put himself between the wizard and the giant, drawing an opportunity attack from the second wolf (which also missed). This should take maybe 20' of movement, maybe 25'.
The giant realized the wizard was holding his leader in thrall and went after him. With his 10' reach he went strait up to the fighter and attacked over him at the wizard. I gave the wizard a +2 cover bonus (not that it made a difference) and the fighter used his protection style to impose disadvantage on his first attack (which canceled out a natural 20). The second attack was going to hit the wizard, but he used a reaction to throw up a Shield (raising his AC to 20), which caused it to miss and added two points to his Arcane Ward.
The wizard disengaged the giant to move towards the wall and behind the ranger and her wolf.
The Rogue decided to take out the wolf closest to the casters so moved south to attack the wolf on the cleric. The wolf she was fighting had already used its OA, so no problem there. Her attack with her rapier missed, but she hit with the dagger of venom and did 27 points to take out that wolf.
Two winter wolves left. Neither breath weapon recharged, but they had the fighter surrounded. Pack Tactics allowed them both to hit for 15 and 13 damage. On the bright side the fighter was successfully doing his job of drawing attacks and taking damage.
The cleric sent her Spiritual Weapon to attack the injured wolf and then cast Sacred Flame on it. Which should have taken it out, but it made the DC 18 Dex save and took no damage from the cantrip and only 9 from the Spiritual Weapon. She moved to place herself between the bad guys and the wizard.
The ranger sent her wolf to finish the wounded winter wolf, which it did so easily. She then engaged the giant and stabbed it with her rapier for a minor 9 points of damage.
So this round only the fighter took damage (28 points) and there is only one winter wolf left. The fighter and ranger have the remaining winter wolf and giant engaged and the cleric is between them and the wizard as well. It is unlikely that they will be able to get to the wizard to break his concentration.
The wolf will go down on the 3rd round easy. The giant? Maybe, maybe not. He will at least get a couple more attacks in. Once they are out of the way a full round of sustained attacks on the hypnotized giant should take him down before he can do anything.
Edit: Should I just put my characters up in this thread? Or somewhere else and link them?
Human Champion Sword and Board Fighter (41 damage)
Wood Elf Thief Rogue (13 damage)
Human Light Cleric (10 damage)
Human Abjurer Wizard (No damage, Arcane Ward down to 26 hit points)
Wood Elf Beast Master Ranger (10 damage)
Cooper the Wolf (20 damage)
With the giant on the fighter being mentally held by the wizard, it became a priority to make sure the wizard didn't lose concentration. With that in mind the fighter first used a bonus action for Second Wind (healed 20 points), then moved away from his own wolf, drawing an opportunity attack (which missed), attacked the wolf on the wizard for 46 damage (he only misses on a 1 and one roll was a 19, which is a crit for him). Then moved back to put himself between the wizard and the giant, drawing an opportunity attack from the second wolf (which also missed). This should take maybe 20' of movement, maybe 25'.
The giant realized the wizard was holding his leader in thrall and went after him. With his 10' reach he went strait up to the fighter and attacked over him at the wizard. I gave the wizard a +2 cover bonus (not that it made a difference) and the fighter used his protection style to impose disadvantage on his first attack (which canceled out a natural 20). The second attack was going to hit the wizard, but he used a reaction to throw up a Shield (raising his AC to 20), which caused it to miss and added two points to his Arcane Ward.
The wizard disengaged the giant to move towards the wall and behind the ranger and her wolf.
The Rogue decided to take out the wolf closest to the casters so moved south to attack the wolf on the cleric. The wolf she was fighting had already used its OA, so no problem there. Her attack with her rapier missed, but she hit with the dagger of venom and did 27 points to take out that wolf.
Two winter wolves left. Neither breath weapon recharged, but they had the fighter surrounded. Pack Tactics allowed them both to hit for 15 and 13 damage. On the bright side the fighter was successfully doing his job of drawing attacks and taking damage.
The cleric sent her Spiritual Weapon to attack the injured wolf and then cast Sacred Flame on it. Which should have taken it out, but it made the DC 18 Dex save and took no damage from the cantrip and only 9 from the Spiritual Weapon. She moved to place herself between the bad guys and the wizard.
The ranger sent her wolf to finish the wounded winter wolf, which it did so easily. She then engaged the giant and stabbed it with her rapier for a minor 9 points of damage.
So this round only the fighter took damage (28 points) and there is only one winter wolf left. The fighter and ranger have the remaining winter wolf and giant engaged and the cleric is between them and the wizard as well. It is unlikely that they will be able to get to the wizard to break his concentration.
The wolf will go down on the 3rd round easy. The giant? Maybe, maybe not. He will at least get a couple more attacks in. Once they are out of the way a full round of sustained attacks on the hypnotized giant should take him down before he can do anything.
Edit: Should I just put my characters up in this thread? Or somewhere else and link them?
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The player of the paladin would likely use a smite or two. If I'm running him, the paladin casts shield of faith uses the Dodge action for a round or two to occupy the giant as living crowd control. With an AC of 23 and disadvantage, there is a good chance the giant misses.
The other giant would be occupied by the wizard ape. The giant ape has around 120 hit points. It will take the giant a while to get through that. The ape does quite a bit of a damage to wear the giant down.
With two wolves as occurred hypnotized, the other two wolves will be focused on the by the Eldritch Knight crossbow guy. His to hit roll at 13th level with a 20 dex and archery style would be +12-5 Sharpshooter for +7. You figure winter wolve AC is about 14. He will get 4 attacks for an average of 1d6+15 or 18 per attack. So four attacks with roughly three hitting per round would be 54 per round. Then add in the cleric hitting for 1d8+1d8 radiant +4 str=13 per hit. So the first round we would be able to hammer the still active wolf for 67 points.
Round 2 the bard starts offense: Now you have 54 on the other wolf, +13, plus bard warlock Eldritch blast for 1d10+4 per attack and +9 to hit. 30 points per round. So the second wolf dies in round with the cleric finishing off wolf one and bard and eldritch knight finishing off wolf 2.
Now you have 8 rounds to finish the giants without wolf interference. The ape should have dealt some damage to the giant he is fighting. You shift everyone onto the giant facing the paladin in round 3. Let the ape take some more hits from the giant because who cares.
Round three the ape attacks the giant on the paladin. Archer hammers likely only hitting two times now for 36 points, cleric for 13, and bard for 19 for 68. The paladin starts attacking as well for 1d8 +1d8 radiant +3 strength for at least one hit for 12 points. 80 points to giant. This does not include ape damage.
Round 4 giant on paladin should die. Focus on other giant.
Round 5 other giant should die with all five characters focus firing giant.
Round six focus fire on wolf, should die in single round.
Round 7 other wolf dies.
By round 8 you are assessing damage. Given the chance to hit for the giant against the paladin dodging granting disadvantage against a 23 AC I think you said a +10 or 11 to hit. He should hit maybe once per round, likely once per two rounds. Even with 52 point per round hits against the ape, it will take 3 rounds to kill the ape.
Rolls will factor into this lucky one way or the other. If the bard hits all three times or the Eldritch knight all four times, things end faster. The eldritch knight should be able to position so both wolves can't get a hit on multiple PCs. If damage is limited to one PC, then we're ok. You don't need to be at full hit points all the time. If a few are down some hit points, then you're ok for quite a while.
I figure a patient party focused on preserving resources finishes this with 1 1st level paladin spell used, 1 polymorph, and a hypnotic pattern. If we're lucky enough to get three wolves, that reduces damage even more. The one wolf will die in a round or two at most. Then we focus the fire the giants. They go down fast and hard.
Not sure how many players use the human crowd control trick with the high AC heavy armor users, but we use it quite often. It works best with a Sentinel Paladin or Fighter. Barbarians are usually easy to hit and can take the damage. I'd be very surprised if we couldn't beat this encounter by round 8 with the saves you made with an optimized party. If you had given the paladin magic armor, we would have fared even better. I can't remember what you gave Bedrock. Our paladin would likely have a 16 Con and over a 100 hit points.
By the way, what would you have given the Eldritch Knight Crossbow Expert?
Flamestrike
Legend
If I was playing the giants and they realised what happened, giant one would simply shake his friend out of the spell. Then giant two would attack
Perhaps now have FG1 instead shake FG2 awake, and then FG2 will attack on the same initiative count?
Sounds like a fair tactic to employ, particularly after missing the wizard twice this round.
+9 and +10 to hit respectively, two attacks each - still possible.
I would likely have them simply ignore the dodging paladin and walk over to the ranged PC or Caster that is actually hurting the giants, take the attack of opportunity on the way.
Again, I wouldnt taget the Ape. I'd ignore it in favor of spellcasters and archers that are actually hurting me. Its attack of opportunity is meaningless to the giants.
I highly doubt that. The giants played smart are not going to let themselves get pinned down by apes and dodging tanks. They're going to go after dangerous priority targets that are huriting them.
I would be more than happy to run this against your optimised party, and I would be prepared to bet that you would expend a fair bit more resources than 3 spell slots to overcome the encounter. You have 450 HP worth of monsters to overcome.
I would ignore a dodging PC and attack someone else as often as not. Particularly easy with giants as they have reach and most PCs dont. Even then an Attack of opportunity on an AC 15/ 150 HP monster isnt a big deal.
+1 crossbow, 10 flaming bolts (deal an extra 1d6 fire damage) an elven cloak, 2 potions of healing and boots of the winterlands.
