D&D General Self-Defeating Rules in D&D

[Paul Farquhar]

Like Monty Python, are you kidding me? I haven't heard anyone who would now be much under 40 quote Monty Python in my entire life

80% of my players are under 40, and quote Monty Python fairly regularly.

Although that may say more about my players and my game than anything else.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

80% of my players are under 40, and quote Monty Python fairly regularly.

Although that may say more about my players and my game than anything else.

I don't doubt either is true, but I would say that is probably unusual.

I tried a Monty Python quote on a 35-ish nerd I know recently and he was frankly totally non-plussed, and when I cringefully explained it to him, he was like "Cool, cool, I've always heard that stuff was fun and should watch it..." in like a real "I will definitely never do that" kind of way.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I don't doubt either is true, but I would say that is probably unusual.

I tried a Monty Python quote on a 35-ish nerd I know recently and he was frankly totally non-plussed, and when I cringefully explained it to him, he was like "Cool, cool, I've always heard that stuff was fun and should watch it..." in like a real "I will definitely never do that" kind of way.

What my players are familiar with often seems strange to me. Doctor Strangelove? “We can’t fight in here, this is the war room!” Treasure Island? “I’ve only seen the muppet version”.

 

[Pamphylian]

No one needs create food and drink. I conjure a flock of turkeys and fireball them. Roast turkey for dozens. Ice Storm and there is plenty of water for everyone. If I have this magic running out of food and water is nonsensical.

Trading one third level spell (Create Food and Drink) for another third level spell (Fireball) AND Conjure Dire Turkey Flock, all to get a charred likely mildly carcinogenic mess seems rather inefficient! I'd allow it!

Even more so the 4th level Ice Storm, as I'd enjoy the water capture schemes employed for this even more expensive option.

I'm a bit put off by this, personally. The level of staggeringly broad assumption here is truly remarkable. Just a real "everyone who plays D&D is basically like me and my friends" vibe for me.

I think you will find, Horatio, that there a lot more and more diverse people who play D&D in heaven and Earth than dreamt of your, er, post.

Like Monty Python, are you kidding me? I haven't heard anyone who would now be much under 40 quote Monty Python in my entire life! Hell it drops off steeply for anyone now under 45. I'm sure there are people out there, but it's not many. And given that "young to mid millennial" is what, 29 to 36, I really doubt it. Princess Bride is a lovely movie, but I really, really wonder how many 29-year-olds have seen it. Also total lack of anime apart from Ghibli? You think more people aged 29 to 36 have watched Monty Python than non-Ghibli fantasy anime? Seems very, very unlikely to me. Plus most people have watched countless minor fantasy things that you're excluding. Plus plus what does "games with mild fantasy elements" even mean? Because games like Skyrim sold 50m+ copies. WoW crossed 100m people who had played like fifteen years ago. Final Fantasy games have sold over 200m copies. BG3 has sold like 20m copies already and it's only been out 2 years. None of these only have "mild" fantasy elements.

Personally, it looks more like you're listing stuff elder Millennials like than the actual age group you're describing. You may be more culturally similar to elder Millennials (I know I am, even though I was born in 1978, so technically an Xennial/Generation Oregon Trail), and that's fine, but I personally think something is biasing your perceptions here.

And you say you're describing "non-D&D" players, but like, future D&D is primarily going to be targeting the 30m to 50m (WotC figures) people who play D&D and similar games. If it doesn't please them at least, it's going to be a flop (c.f. 4E, or conversely, the success of 5E, which made a huge effort to please all D&D players at least a bit). So if you abandon decades of gradually changing D&D tropes to chase some dragon of a 1980s aesthetic, I just can't see that as smart for D&D itself (even though it can be smart for a more specific game).

Sorry I got some real problems with this claim! I'm triggered. I'm stuck on it. I've got hang-ups about it (cue 1970s music)!

I certainly didn't mean to imply everyone matches the player (or potential player) demographics I'm describing! I suppose my argument was that there do exist plenty of people, maybe especially the not-especially D&D attuned, that likely place no particular retro 80s valence on torches! A certainly didn't before this conversation, and I think I'm more D&D/fantasy attuned then most of my players. I think the things that exist in a big part of the public imagination for lighting in fantasy settings (based on my biased sampling) are basically: torches, lanterns, Gandalf's staff, or nothing (ambient light from wherever).

And yeah forgot about Skyrim and WoW (oops) - I'd say Skyrim has kind of torchy vibes! Haven't played WoW much but doesnt that have some torches as well?

But I'm definitely surprised to hear that re: Monty Python. I'm early 30's, I think the majority of the people my age that I know, nerdy or not, are at least familiar. Among many other things, it was being shown in social studies classes in my high school lol. For the "medievalness".

Because you can do stuff like roll the bug lantern (which might be a ball or cylindrical) across the floor ahead of you, which you can't do with those. Or have your familiar carry it up to the ceiling or w/e. Light cast on an object can do the same, but you probably want that object with you. Plus more lighting options which aren't torches (which frankly, and I feel like you acknowledged this, are an insane way to try and light an adventuring expedition if you have any other options at all)

Like I said, I'm not talking about mechanical gameplay, that's never going to be where this is interesting, we're talking about some kind of verisimilitude and small-scale roleplayed gameplay.

Yes, like I said, no particular attachment to torches beyond them being a staple of fantasy spelunking in my imagination - I suspect we just won't agree on whether mundane darkness can be interesting in gameplay, but I do think a solid nerf to darkvision etc. would make bug lanterns and your other proposals quite a bit more fun!

 

[James Gasik]

Like Monty Python, are you kidding me? I haven't heard anyone who would now be much under 40 quote Monty Python in my entire life! Hell it drops off steeply for anyone now under 45. I'm sure there are people out there, but it's not many. And given that "young to mid millennial" is what, 29 to 36, I really doubt it. Princess Bride is a lovely movie, but I really, really wonder how many 29-year-olds have seen it. Also total lack of anime apart from Ghibli? You think more people aged 29 to 36 have watched Monty Python than non-Ghibli fantasy anime? Seems very, very unlikely to me. Plus most people have watched countless minor fantasy things that you're excluding. Plus plus what does "games with mild fantasy elements" even mean? Because games like Skyrim sold 50m+ copies. WoW crossed 100m people who had played like fifteen years ago. Final Fantasy games have sold over 200m copies. BG3 has sold like 20m copies already and it's only been out 2 years. None of these only have "mild" fantasy elements.

Come on now, every gamer can quote Monty Python and the Holy Grail. And Spaceballs. And the Princess Bride.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Come on now, every gamer can quote Monty Python and the Holy Grail. And Spaceballs. And the Princess Bride.

Every gamer I know.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

What my players are familiar with often seems strange to me. Doctor Strangelove? “We can’t fight in here, this is the war room!” Treasure Island? “I’ve only seen the muppet version”.

I often say "You can’t fight in here gentlemen, this is the war room!".

But I have never watched Doctor Strangelove (I know, I know...) and I'm not even entirely sure what the plot is beyond that it's satire, involves nuclear weapons and maybe eventually a dude is riding a nuclear bomb whilst waving a cowboy hat as it falls. I think I got most of that from clips and parodies. I wonder how many of your players have actually seen the movie?

(The correct quote is apparently: "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!")

Samesies on Treasure Island (Muppet version only) and I'm 47.

In general I know a huge amount of older pop culture from older Simpsons episodes and the like.

But I'm definitely surprised to hear that re: Monty Python. I'm early 30's, I think the majority of the people my age that I know, nerdy or not, are at least familiar. Among many other things, it was being shown in social studies classes in my high school lol. For the "medievalness".

This smacks of upper-middle-class-ness to me, very strongly.

But I am upper-middle-class so maybe I'm projecting!

I may be biased too because if I ever hear a player say "Bring me a shrubbery!" in a silly voice again I think I will have an aneurysm. Luckily I don't think I have heard it for over a decade. I can survive more "Let's not go there. Tis a silly place" though.

And yeah forgot about Skyrim and WoW (oops) - I'd say Skyrim has kind of torchy vibes! Haven't played WoW much but doesnt that have some torches as well?

Sure, but remember the distinction I was making between "torches are present" and "torches as a major aesthetic"? Skyrim falls towards the former, and further, in Skyrim, you're pretty much always using a spell or a belt-lantern for lighting after the first 30-60 minutes of the game, because you want both hands available. This is the key issue with torches. Some dude has to carry them (hence the RPG Torchbearer is called Torchbearer). And virtually every TTRPG likes to screw you over if you dare to not use both hands for fightin'. D&D particularly does. Hell you can't even use the one-handed fighting style in D&D if you have a torch, because your off-hand isn't empty!

In WoW, torches exist, but most of the lighting in the game is magical and often strongly coloured as well. Many areas in WoW have very strongly colourful lighting. The only places torches exist as an actual major aesthetic is the horror-themed zone Duskwood. Even in other horror-themed zones (of which there are many), it's mostly magical lighting/lanterns.

ut I do think a solid nerf to darkvision etc. would make bug lanterns and your other proposals quite a bit more fun!

Sure but like, how do you nerf darkvision without pissing people off? It's a defining capability for too many races in D&D at this point, and given that orcs, goblins, etc. are playable now (they actually have been since 1989 in certain official settings, but that's a long story) and that definitely isn't going to change in any future edition, you can't only give it to "bad guys", and you'd make the a lot of species be kind of unable to operate (particularly in the Underdark) without it.

Plus, you can't give it to one side and not the other in D&D (again, unlike Shadowdark), the "orc with a bucket of water" you proposed earlier is screwing himself as much as he's screwing you. Hell, you may well be another orc!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Come on now, every gamer can quote Monty Python and the Holy Grail. And Spaceballs. And the Princess Bride.

I profoundly hope you're busting my (space)balls here.

 

[mixmastashizz]

I think its okay to think torches are cool.

Just because something is old doesnt mean that it isn't cool or aesthetically pleasing.

I also dont think there's anything wrong with the game sticking to an aesthetic or visual feel.

Edit: I also dont think it is particularly important that D&D continually updates its aesthetic with modern fantasy approaches. But I also dont necessarily care that it does or not.

 

[payn]

I think its okay to think torches are cool.

Just because something is old doesnt mean that it isn't cool or aesthetically pleasing.

I also dont think there's anything wrong with the game sticking to an aesthetic or visual feel.

Edit: I also dont think it is particularly important that D&D continually updates its aesthetic with modern fantasy approaches. But I also dont necessarily care that it does or not.

Nobody is saying torches are bad visuals or don’t belong in D&D settings. We are saying managing a collection of sticks rags and oil because your ass is toast if you don’t, isn’t part of the game folks want the focus on anymore.