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*Dungeons & Dragons
Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day
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<blockquote data-quote="Flamestrike" data-source="post: 6861957" data-attributes="member: 6788736"><p>The party enter a large cavern illuminated by an eerie phosphoresent fungus. A large crevasse 60' across, crosses the cavern. As the party finish crossing the crevasse a band of Demons appear from one of the many passages leading into the chamber, 40' away.</p><p></p><p>Roll initiative.</p><p></p><p>The faerzess of the room interferes with spellcasting. Creatures must pass a DC 15 intelligence (arcana) check to use conjuration or divination magic of any kind. On a failure the spell slot is expended but nothing happens. The room is shrouded with dim light. Stalagmites and stalagtites litter the room, providing patches of cover, and areas of difficult terrain.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>You impose these restrictions on your monsters, yet happily run your PCs as a bunch of soulless murderhobos who only ever use optimal tactics?</p><p></p><p>Why is the DM bound to play monsters according to alignment, desires, intelligence, personality, religion and morality, yet not the PCs who are just a bunch of CN optimised murder bots?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>From the monsters postion, whose in robes? Who looks the most like a vulnerable spellcaster to the monsters? Who have they seen casting spells? Failing that, who looks like the easiest to tear apart, or who is doing the most damage?</p><p></p><p>That said, your players sound like they dont hold back, routinely taking the most optimal choices (regardless of character knowledge), ganing up on monsters, targetting weak saves, targetting the most optimal targets and metagaming the heck out of stuff. Looking at the battle through the eyes of the players and not the characters.</p><p></p><p>They wanna do that kind of crap? Do it back to them. Pick on the PC with the lowest AC and wail on him with everything you have. If they complain about how the monsters always seem to know this, let them know the monsters are making the same complaints.</p><p></p><p>Im only being half serious here. But you as DM should know who is the weakest or most vulnerable, and you as the DM are the one that is allowed to metagame to challenge your players. If theyre having too easy a time of it, do just this. Heck; they certinaly do it themselves so they cant complain.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Great, you can have an AC of 26 with full plate, shield, defensive style and the shield spell. So only a 36 percent chance of hitting per attack at +9 with advantage. Hardly what I would call invincible.</p><p></p><p>Your bladesinger is AC 31? Awesome. Hows his Con save looking vs several volleys of Stunning screech, poison and spores? He's bound to fail a DC 14 Con save at some point. Also - hows his Str (athletics) looking when the Hezrou shove him into the crevasse?</p><p></p><p>These Demons are sure pretty dumb.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Read the above description. The whole band stumbled in through a wide corridor to be 40' away from the PCs who are trapped with backs to a wide chasm.</p><p></p><p>You (as DM) are letting the PCs dictate the encounter conditions. Stop it. <u>You're the DM</u>. You're the one in charge of where battles take place. If your battles arent challenging the PCs, this is one thing you can control to fix it.</p><p></p><p>Youre there to set challenges appropriate to your party compostion, experience and level. Set them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>First he has to avoid getting stunned. He also has to save against being poisoned. Maybe a few saves against stench as well if the Hezrous get close. Not everyone is within 10' of the Paladin, and even then he's bound to fail one of the half dozen DC14 Con saves coming his way.</p><p></p><p>Also, this could happen:</p><p></p><p><span style="color: #222426"><span style="font-family: 'Georgia'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #222426"><span style="font-family: 'Georgia'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #222426"><span style="font-family: 'Georgia'">The Vrock makes an attack at +6 (with advantage) against the archers choice of strength athletics or dex acrobatics. It then uses its free object ineraction to kick the bow into the crevasse behind the archer.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #222426"><span style="font-family: 'Georgia'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #222426"><span style="font-family: 'Georgia'">If the party prove hard to hit, and hit back hard, this is most definately an option.</span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Flamestrike, post: 6861957, member: 6788736"] The party enter a large cavern illuminated by an eerie phosphoresent fungus. A large crevasse 60' across, crosses the cavern. As the party finish crossing the crevasse a band of Demons appear from one of the many passages leading into the chamber, 40' away. Roll initiative. The faerzess of the room interferes with spellcasting. Creatures must pass a DC 15 intelligence (arcana) check to use conjuration or divination magic of any kind. On a failure the spell slot is expended but nothing happens. The room is shrouded with dim light. Stalagmites and stalagtites litter the room, providing patches of cover, and areas of difficult terrain. You impose these restrictions on your monsters, yet happily run your PCs as a bunch of soulless murderhobos who only ever use optimal tactics? Why is the DM bound to play monsters according to alignment, desires, intelligence, personality, religion and morality, yet not the PCs who are just a bunch of CN optimised murder bots? From the monsters postion, whose in robes? Who looks the most like a vulnerable spellcaster to the monsters? Who have they seen casting spells? Failing that, who looks like the easiest to tear apart, or who is doing the most damage? That said, your players sound like they dont hold back, routinely taking the most optimal choices (regardless of character knowledge), ganing up on monsters, targetting weak saves, targetting the most optimal targets and metagaming the heck out of stuff. Looking at the battle through the eyes of the players and not the characters. They wanna do that kind of crap? Do it back to them. Pick on the PC with the lowest AC and wail on him with everything you have. If they complain about how the monsters always seem to know this, let them know the monsters are making the same complaints. Im only being half serious here. But you as DM should know who is the weakest or most vulnerable, and you as the DM are the one that is allowed to metagame to challenge your players. If theyre having too easy a time of it, do just this. Heck; they certinaly do it themselves so they cant complain. Great, you can have an AC of 26 with full plate, shield, defensive style and the shield spell. So only a 36 percent chance of hitting per attack at +9 with advantage. Hardly what I would call invincible. Your bladesinger is AC 31? Awesome. Hows his Con save looking vs several volleys of Stunning screech, poison and spores? He's bound to fail a DC 14 Con save at some point. Also - hows his Str (athletics) looking when the Hezrou shove him into the crevasse? These Demons are sure pretty dumb. Read the above description. The whole band stumbled in through a wide corridor to be 40' away from the PCs who are trapped with backs to a wide chasm. You (as DM) are letting the PCs dictate the encounter conditions. Stop it. [U]You're the DM[/U]. You're the one in charge of where battles take place. If your battles arent challenging the PCs, this is one thing you can control to fix it. Youre there to set challenges appropriate to your party compostion, experience and level. Set them. First he has to avoid getting stunned. He also has to save against being poisoned. Maybe a few saves against stench as well if the Hezrous get close. Not everyone is within 10' of the Paladin, and even then he's bound to fail one of the half dozen DC14 Con saves coming his way. Also, this could happen: [COLOR=#222426][FONT=Georgia] The Vrock makes an attack at +6 (with advantage) against the archers choice of strength athletics or dex acrobatics. It then uses its free object ineraction to kick the bow into the crevasse behind the archer. If the party prove hard to hit, and hit back hard, this is most definately an option.[/FONT][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day
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