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Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 6862032" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>I feel your pain, Celtavian, I really do. </p><p></p><p>But might I suggest a more constructive path forward?</p><p></p><p>The game simply can't handle the combination of expert players using optimized characters. There's no way around it. It simply can't. The designers aren't designing the game for that kind of party.</p><p></p><p>So my suggestion is: don't fight the inevitable. You'll either burn out as a DM, or you'll end up redesigning the entire high level play of the edition.</p><p></p><p>Here's a vastly simpler challenge, that's hopefully fun too: </p><p></p><p>Have your players roll up a new party, consisting of the following:</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A human cleric. Use the regular human, not the variant. Possibly in exchange for a minor ribbon ability.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A dwarf fighter. Have him voluntarily accept a Speed of 20 ft, possibly in exchange for a minor ribbon ability. Have him dump Dex.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">An elf wizard. Have her voluntarily accept Nightvision rather than Darkvision (she treats any light source as if its bright and dim ranges are doubled, but she can't see in darkness). Possibly in exchange for a minor ribbon ability.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A halfling Rogue. Give her the challenge of only using melee and thrown weapons. Possibly in exchange for a minor ribbon ability.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I don't know hom many players you have, but any additional party member should not have both darkvision and spells. Preferably no more full spellcasters: limit additional party members to half and third casters. And non-casters!</li> </ul><p>Then run your underdark campaign for them! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>The point is, the game works much better for a significantly nerfed party. Any monster with a Speed of more than 30 ft should be faster than the group. Any monster with 120 ft darkvision should out-scout the party. Absolutely crucial is: the party should not be able to project a considerable offense at a distance of more than a single move for the monsters, that is 30 ft or so. Any strategy that prevents the mobsters from closing to melee must significantly reduce the party's own damage output; so the party too wants melee for top damage.</p><p></p><p>So, instead of doing all that work beefing up the monsters, start the players from a much lower baseline. The players can still optimize and minmax, only they can't trivially outpace the monsters.</p><p></p><p>Suggestion: make the Dwarf slow strength fighter the leader of the group. The other characters should want to stay close to their leader. The Dwarf could be streotypically headstrong, and relish melee: "nobody touches the Marilith before I've had a chance to chop her up with my Axe". That kind of roleply. This is of course to make sure the big brutes have a decent chance of being able to walk up to melee without too much interference. Why? Because that's what the game is designed to do well! </p><p></p><p>You can still allow feats, if you ask your players to voluntarily abstain from any major feats. Basically: have them not take ANY of the feats they took in the previous campaign! Tell them it's for variety... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>You can still allow multiclassing, with one exception: no fighter levels unless you start as a fighter. (Dipping two fighter levels is too easy and too good for most non-full spellcasters).</p><p></p><p>Good luck! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 6862032, member: 12731"] I feel your pain, Celtavian, I really do. But might I suggest a more constructive path forward? The game simply can't handle the combination of expert players using optimized characters. There's no way around it. It simply can't. The designers aren't designing the game for that kind of party. So my suggestion is: don't fight the inevitable. You'll either burn out as a DM, or you'll end up redesigning the entire high level play of the edition. Here's a vastly simpler challenge, that's hopefully fun too: Have your players roll up a new party, consisting of the following: [LIST] [*]A human cleric. Use the regular human, not the variant. Possibly in exchange for a minor ribbon ability. [*]A dwarf fighter. Have him voluntarily accept a Speed of 20 ft, possibly in exchange for a minor ribbon ability. Have him dump Dex. [*]An elf wizard. Have her voluntarily accept Nightvision rather than Darkvision (she treats any light source as if its bright and dim ranges are doubled, but she can't see in darkness). Possibly in exchange for a minor ribbon ability. [*]A halfling Rogue. Give her the challenge of only using melee and thrown weapons. Possibly in exchange for a minor ribbon ability. [*]I don't know hom many players you have, but any additional party member should not have both darkvision and spells. Preferably no more full spellcasters: limit additional party members to half and third casters. And non-casters! [/LIST] Then run your underdark campaign for them! :) The point is, the game works much better for a significantly nerfed party. Any monster with a Speed of more than 30 ft should be faster than the group. Any monster with 120 ft darkvision should out-scout the party. Absolutely crucial is: the party should not be able to project a considerable offense at a distance of more than a single move for the monsters, that is 30 ft or so. Any strategy that prevents the mobsters from closing to melee must significantly reduce the party's own damage output; so the party too wants melee for top damage. So, instead of doing all that work beefing up the monsters, start the players from a much lower baseline. The players can still optimize and minmax, only they can't trivially outpace the monsters. Suggestion: make the Dwarf slow strength fighter the leader of the group. The other characters should want to stay close to their leader. The Dwarf could be streotypically headstrong, and relish melee: "nobody touches the Marilith before I've had a chance to chop her up with my Axe". That kind of roleply. This is of course to make sure the big brutes have a decent chance of being able to walk up to melee without too much interference. Why? Because that's what the game is designed to do well! You can still allow feats, if you ask your players to voluntarily abstain from any major feats. Basically: have them not take ANY of the feats they took in the previous campaign! Tell them it's for variety... :) You can still allow multiclassing, with one exception: no fighter levels unless you start as a fighter. (Dipping two fighter levels is too easy and too good for most non-full spellcasters). Good luck! :) [/QUOTE]
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Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day
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