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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 6862333" data-attributes="member: 6785785">Gotcha. Could you position maybe scaling back the power gaming as an alternative? Instead of making house rules to make the game more deadly, maybe come up with race and class selections that are not picked with optimization in mind? That will result in the same thing. I don't know if your players would dig that....but maybe you position it as a challenge. "Okay....for this upcoming Underdark campaign, you guys are all going to play human soldiers that have been captured by the drow....can you survive?" That kind of thing. This means they'd all be humans, and also leans heavily toward martial classes, although perhaps a war cleric or something like that would be possible. Maybe they'd be into that as an exercise or a challenge. Maybe try something like that in a one off adventure before committing to an entire campaign.Alternatively, you could institute some rules to curb the min-maxing. Again, this may not be liked by your group, from teh sound of things, but it might be worth talking about with them. Make the training options more prominent. Okay, you're going to multi-class? How does that happen? How does your 3rd level fighter start to become a warlock? My playing group has tried so many different approaches in order to keep the game fresh. This is across all editions, though. We haven't played enough 5E yet to be bored with it. Often times, the DM will create the PCs ahead of time, and then assign or have people pick randomly. A lot of players balk at this, initially, but usually it winds up creating an experience that was different than they were used to, and so it worked out being a positive. Another time, I had them all make characters, and then when we got to the table, I said okay, pass your character sheet to the player to the left, and then they played the characters that were passed. All this is to say that there may be alternative options to creating a rewarding play experience for your group. Yes, you can alter mechanics to make monsters tougher or the game more deadly. You can play with environmental factors and other in game aspects to help achieve the level of challenge that you're looking for. But you can also change up the way you play the game, or some of the aspects of character creation and so on. I say this as a DM who would personally dread going back to Pathfinder. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> I liked that system well enough....and I would gladly play it if anyone in my group wanted to run some stuff....but I don't think I will ever DM it again. I found the experience so frustrating that I'd exhaust all other options before going back.</blockquote>

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