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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MostlyDm" data-source="post: 6862373" data-attributes="member: 6788973">Sounds like a rough situation, man. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown    :("  data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" />Hawkeyefan had some good suggestions, I think, but they might not be extreme enough to shake your group out of their current mindset. You could really change it up, play Savage Worlds or FATE or something completely counter to the 3.5/PF style. Or play something like CoC or Dark Heresy to really break away from the "feeling like powerful heroes" vibe, heh. I've had players that optimized mechanics of their characters, and I certainly did it myself in 3.5, but never in the way your table does. It was always optimized to a more specific goal, like... I want to make the most effective Con 5 dagger-wielding rogue that I possibly can, or whatever. The optimization started at the midway point in character creation, after all the big decisions had been made. 100% optimization is different, more difficult, certainly. But honestly your players' attitudes seem like the biggest problem. Fighting over a beholder's anti-magic? That seems way off base to me. Good luck, man. Hope you guys find a setting/system that shakes them out of their rut and keeps you all having fun.</blockquote>