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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lord Twig" data-source="post: 6862557" data-attributes="member: 31754">[MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION],In my edits and re-edits of trying to get my post done I think I lost the meaning of some of my points. So I apologize for that. I did not mean to say that you were saying that your players are better. I meant to suggest that the way it has been stated implies superiority weather you meant it or not, and I don't think you meant it that way.So, yes, your players do optimize for ruthless efficiency far more than the "typical" group, but that is not the only problem. It seems that, although they are "playing to win" to an extent that race, class and abilities are reduced to a numerical puzzle to figure out the "best" combination, you, as a DM, are not doing the same. So you have a disparity of play styles. Sure you DM for them, and are used to their play style, but you apparently refuse to stoop to their level.And no it is not house ruling to have a shadow demon out of range of the party's sight observe its fellows being destroyed and run away. It doesn't matter how good their stealth and perception are if he isn't in range. But you decided they would all be in range and spotted.Likewise you will apparently always give the party a way to avoid the demons. If they are in a tactically advantageous position the party will just never approach them. They will always spot them and will always find another way around. Why? Because you decided there would be another way around. They are in the underdark. There are only so many ways to go. Just tell them, "Yes the demons are ahead, but there is no other way around them. Unless you want to waste weeks doing so and allow (horrible thing) to happen." It's up to you to decide what the horrible thing is. If you can't figure out something that will motivate the party then that's your problem. I can guarantee that I could come up with something, no matter chaotic neutral murder-hobo the party is, there is something they care about. And I will destroy it if they don't act.Or just have more demons come up behind them, because, you know, DM.Now after all that I'm going to agree with you. The melee brutes actually are a problem. I don't think it is an insurmountable problem, but the marilith and balor should not have been pure melee brutes. They are supposed to be lords of the Abyss. They should be impossible to run away from. They should be able to do something bad to you no matter where you are. How are they supposed to rule if the other demons can just run away and they can never touch them? At the very least there should be some helpful notes about always including some other demons to help them out against range focused characters and such.So yeah, the game is not perfect.</blockquote>

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