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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6864320" data-attributes="member: 5834">The encounter is way above Deadly according to the list. I fail to see why a way above deadly encounter with demons in a neutral environment should not be a sufficient challenge for the PCs. The entire reason I'm running one or two encounters per day is because the module I'm using is designed that way. The WotC designed module Out of the Abyss is designed where the majority of encounters are one shots or a couple of encounters a day. So what counts as "out of the box"? Are WotC released modules "out of the box"?I see zero addressing of funny little obvious math problems like the balor with the 14 Passive Perception trying to spot characters with Stealth scores that are often +8 or +12 or more by the time they square off with them. Or pure melee monsters fighting PCs with mobility advantages that do not in anyway have to stay in the room with the monster. And why do you need a complex environment for a way above deadly demon encounter to be challenging even if it is only one encounter that day? It's far in excess of deadly. Why should a far in excess deadly encounter not be a challenge for feat using, magic item having PCs? This is the idea I don't get. Why are monsters so tactically limited that they require such a complex environment? Why did they remove so much spell ability from demons and dragons knowing a PC party will have access to a vast array of spells that will be almost impossible for a melee monster to overcome?If I were running a base deadly or hard encounter against the PCs and complaining, then sure, tell me I'm an idiot and don't know what I'm talking about. When I'm running even a single encounter that exceeds the deadly threshold by two or three times the xp margin and the characters are defeating that with fair ease, I don't care if they're in an advantageous environment with feats and magic items, that seems very wrong. How much of an effect do magic items, feats, and multiclassing have? So much of an increase in power that two or three times deadly isn't enough to challenge them? Apparently so.Basically, I'm being told that two or three time deadly encounters in a neutral environment against PCs using feats, magic items, and multiclassing where they can nova is just not enough to challenge them. I don't agree with that. Why can't monsters that add up to a two or three time deadly encounter in a neutral environment provide a challenge? If they can't, then why is WotC designing so many modules with these one or two encounter day scenarios with single powerful monsters? Why are the people that make the game not designing their modules more like Flamestrike or the others saying single x2 or x3 deadly encounters in neutral environments are not enough to challenge PCs with feats, multclassing, and magic items?Sure, you could cherry pick some encounters and TPK the party. Who cares about one time? Could you do it every time using all different types of monsters and scenarios over and over again. I doubt it. You have to cherry pick particularly dangerous creatures of which there are a few, otherwise the PCs will steamroll your encounter. They will do this more often than you TPK them because not all monster options, even with equal CR, are the same. Pretty far from the same in terms of a dangerous challenge.And if all this I see posted on here about 6 to 8 encounter days, dangerous environments, and the like not practiced by WotC module designers? Pathfinder module designers use these principles in their module design. WotC doesn't? Why? Why are their modules such garbage compared to Pathfinder who does believe in resource depletion, strange environments, and other such tactics to make the game interesting and challenging.</blockquote>

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