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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day
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<blockquote data-quote="matskralc" data-source="post: 6865931" data-attributes="member: 6802405"><p>The math of skills, spells, feats, and monster design is not your problem. That's why nobody is talking about it.</p><p></p><p>It is beyond obvious that your decision to <em>ignore the math that the game is designed around</em> is what is breaking your game. <em>You </em>rolled 4d6 drop the lowest seven times. <em>You </em>handed out triple legendary artifact magic items to everybody. <em>You </em>allow everybody to concentrate on extra buff spells. <em>You </em>allow Unearthed Arcana material that is playtest quality at best. <em>You </em>created another -5/+10 feat for sword-and-boarders to use. <em>You </em>allow players to hold three uses of Inspiration at a time.</p><p></p><p>Those were all <em>your</em> decisions. Those decisions were not the PHB's, not the DMG's, not the MM's, not UA's, not OotA's, not Jeremy Crawford's, not Gary Gygax's, not flamestrike's, not Hemlock's, not mine, not your PCs'. It was <em>your </em>decision to permit every single one of those things (and whichever ones you've not told us about yet). Your lack of acceptance of any responsibility for the role that you have played in your current predicament is frustrating.</p><p></p><p>And, once again, as this new lich example demonstrates, you run your monsters as though they aren't just on suicide missions but as though the suicide is their primary objective on the mission. So even after making all of those decisions, you take your last line of defense (tactics) and implement suboptimal ones.</p><p></p><p>The math of the encounter guidelines and CR calculation are utterly inapplicable to your group's play style. Math will not save you. You are barely playing the same game that page 82 of the DMG thinks you are playing. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I doubt very much that your group's style is significantly different in the other campaigns you've played. It has been like pulling teeth over the course of this thread for us to discover the various and sundry ways in which you have altered the game from the one that the encounter math is designed around.</p><p></p><p>Do you truly believe the encounter math is designed around PC's getting the equivalent of a +1 to every ability score via 4d6 drop the lowest times 7? Do you truly believe the encounter math is designed around level 10 characters possessing <em>multiple</em> magic items <em>each</em> that are beyond epic legendary, many of which possess <em>more power than the PCs themselves do</em>? Do you truly believe that the encounter math is designed around 6 PCs being able to concentrate on buff spells <em>and</em> other concentration spells at the same time?</p><p></p><p>And yet you still refuse to appreciate the fact that your PCs are invincible because <em>you allowed them to be invincible</em>. You blame the game. Your problem has nothing to do with what a marilith's challenge rating should be or what a deadly encounter consists of. The game math is absolutely <em>not</em> the armor that your PCs are wearing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There are problems with the game math. High level encounters can be a trick to balance. I just played through a high level adventure the other day where we defeated the 3x deadly encounter much more smoothly than we did the medium encounter that followed it. There was no nova involved because we know our DM doesn't run single-encounter Adventuring Days.</p><p></p><p><em>Your</em> campaign is not evidence of problems with the game math. That is why I, for one, am not discussing the game math with you.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I address it by not instituting a million and one house rules that almost all serve PC power. I address it by not allowing untested material in my games (unless the game is explicitly a "let's just goof off and murder some stuff" type of game, in which case the challenges of the encounter math don't bother me because challenging the PCs isn't the point in that game). I address it by not handing out world-changing magical items like they're candy at levels way earlier than a PC should even <em>see</em> them, let alone possess them. I address it by running my intelligent monsters like the intelligent monsters that they are. And, so far, the game math has served me fairly well.</p><p></p><p>Your entire complaint has been "the game doesn't work". But you refuse to recognize the fact that you're not playing the same game as (most of) the rest of us. If all you want to talk about is the encounter math and not the overpowered rules changes and content decisions that you've made, well then of course we can't help you.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="matskralc, post: 6865931, member: 6802405"] The math of skills, spells, feats, and monster design is not your problem. That's why nobody is talking about it. It is beyond obvious that your decision to [I]ignore the math that the game is designed around[/I] is what is breaking your game. [I]You [/I]rolled 4d6 drop the lowest seven times. [I]You [/I]handed out triple legendary artifact magic items to everybody. [I]You [/I]allow everybody to concentrate on extra buff spells. [I]You [/I]allow Unearthed Arcana material that is playtest quality at best. [I]You [/I]created another -5/+10 feat for sword-and-boarders to use. [I]You [/I]allow players to hold three uses of Inspiration at a time. Those were all [I]your[/I] decisions. Those decisions were not the PHB's, not the DMG's, not the MM's, not UA's, not OotA's, not Jeremy Crawford's, not Gary Gygax's, not flamestrike's, not Hemlock's, not mine, not your PCs'. It was [I]your [/I]decision to permit every single one of those things (and whichever ones you've not told us about yet). Your lack of acceptance of any responsibility for the role that you have played in your current predicament is frustrating. And, once again, as this new lich example demonstrates, you run your monsters as though they aren't just on suicide missions but as though the suicide is their primary objective on the mission. So even after making all of those decisions, you take your last line of defense (tactics) and implement suboptimal ones. The math of the encounter guidelines and CR calculation are utterly inapplicable to your group's play style. Math will not save you. You are barely playing the same game that page 82 of the DMG thinks you are playing. I doubt very much that your group's style is significantly different in the other campaigns you've played. It has been like pulling teeth over the course of this thread for us to discover the various and sundry ways in which you have altered the game from the one that the encounter math is designed around. Do you truly believe the encounter math is designed around PC's getting the equivalent of a +1 to every ability score via 4d6 drop the lowest times 7? Do you truly believe the encounter math is designed around level 10 characters possessing [I]multiple[/I] magic items [I]each[/I] that are beyond epic legendary, many of which possess [I]more power than the PCs themselves do[/I]? Do you truly believe that the encounter math is designed around 6 PCs being able to concentrate on buff spells [I]and[/I] other concentration spells at the same time? And yet you still refuse to appreciate the fact that your PCs are invincible because [I]you allowed them to be invincible[/I]. You blame the game. Your problem has nothing to do with what a marilith's challenge rating should be or what a deadly encounter consists of. The game math is absolutely [I]not[/I] the armor that your PCs are wearing. There are problems with the game math. High level encounters can be a trick to balance. I just played through a high level adventure the other day where we defeated the 3x deadly encounter much more smoothly than we did the medium encounter that followed it. There was no nova involved because we know our DM doesn't run single-encounter Adventuring Days. [I]Your[/I] campaign is not evidence of problems with the game math. That is why I, for one, am not discussing the game math with you. I address it by not instituting a million and one house rules that almost all serve PC power. I address it by not allowing untested material in my games (unless the game is explicitly a "let's just goof off and murder some stuff" type of game, in which case the challenges of the encounter math don't bother me because challenging the PCs isn't the point in that game). I address it by not handing out world-changing magical items like they're candy at levels way earlier than a PC should even [I]see[/I] them, let alone possess them. I address it by running my intelligent monsters like the intelligent monsters that they are. And, so far, the game math has served me fairly well. Your entire complaint has been "the game doesn't work". But you refuse to recognize the fact that you're not playing the same game as (most of) the rest of us. If all you want to talk about is the encounter math and not the overpowered rules changes and content decisions that you've made, well then of course we can't help you. [/QUOTE]
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Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day
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