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Message: <blockquote data-quote="matskralc" data-source="post: 6867149" data-attributes="member: 6802405">These comments make me think that the OotA campaign isn't really an incredible outlier in terms of this group's style. It seems to me that the power level probably creeps up a little more with each campaign in an effort to maintain player interest and engagement. Celtavian had to give away so much in the OotA campaign that any hope of game balance has just been totally destroyed. He said himself that he wants it to be epic and memorable. For a group just starting out, the stock version of Out of the Abyss will be more than epic and memorable enough. Players doing this for 20+ years now have already slain demon lords. Multiple times, probably.That's also why I think the game math is far down the list of the problems Celtavian is having with his group. It starts with the increased character building power, the character-buffing houserules, and the incredible magic items that have to be incredible in order for them to be even remotely memorable. When you've been playing for 20 years, your fifth Holy Avenger doesn't seem very special.I don't think Celtavian needs Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford to think harder about the game math so much as his group needs a break from the D&D paradigm. If they can't think about how they play the game differently (no small task, to be sure), then it does seem that a different game might be most appropriate.</blockquote>