Design & Development: Quests

[LostSoul]

Tell that to the rules lawyers.

Rules lawyers are cheaters.

 

[LostSoul]

How is this ANY different than any game ever? You get hired by the dark stranger in the bar to go murder a bunch of goblins.

See Burning Wheel's Beliefs.

 

[Hussar]

See Burning Wheel's Beliefs.

Sorry, by game, I meant "game of D&D", not all games ever written. Should have said edition I suppose.

But, the point is still there. I'm going to go with my gut here and say that being hired by X to do Y has occurred in most D&D campaigns at one point or another. Could be wrong there, but, I don't think so. And, I would say that most DM's do award more xp for doing Y than not doing Y.

When the archbishop hires you to capture the spy, and you go and frolic with the dryads, you don't get xp for capturing the spy. How is writing it down changing anything?

 

[pemerton]

Hussar, agree totally.

Reynard, you still haven't explained what happens if the players want to make friends with the monsters/NPCs that the (nasty railroading) GM has set up as the bad guys to be overcome? Or putting it round the other way: if the game only works if the players adopt the same perspective on certain NPCs as the GM (ie see them as bad guys to be defeated) then why is it any worse if the game presupposes that the players will have their PCs make friends with the GM's Archbishop?

 

[Reynard]

Reynard, you still haven't explained what happens if the players want to make friends with the monsters/NPCs that the (nasty railroading) GM has set up as the bad guys to be overcome? Or putting it round the other way: if the game only works if the players adopt the same perspective on certain NPCs as the GM (ie see them as bad guys to be defeated) then why is it any worse if the game presupposes that the players will have their PCs make friends with the GM's Archbishop?

Are you sking me in general, or are you asking in regards to the Quest system as it is presented. because, in general, there's no specific "quest". There's an adventure, which is composed of some combination of location(s), challeng(es) and person(s), and what the players do in regards to that adventure is up to them. While there might be an "in game" quest presented (the PCs choose to speak to the Archbishop who offers them a reward of some sort in exhcange for bringing the spies in alive) there's no meta-game construct -- XP -- attached to it. In other words, choice and conequence for PCs exists only in the context of the game world, not the "game" itself.

If you are asking me from the other direction, what the quest system presented would do, I don't know. The Des&Dev article is so vague as to provide little or no information regarding what it means to change quests mid stream; the Mearls post suggests that, while PCs can do things differently, they only get the meta-game reward of extra XP if they do things the DM's way.

There is a world of difference ebtween "Uncover the spies in Hommlett" and "Uncover the spies in Hommlett and bring them alive to the Archbishop" as a meta-game goal for the players and their characters. the former is a pretty typical "adventure" hook; the latter is a victory-condition that limits player driven outcomes.

 

[Hussar]

While there might be an "in game" quest presented (the PCs choose to speak to the Archbishop who offers them a reward of some sort in exhcange for bringing the spies in alive) there's no meta-game construct -- XP -- attached to it.

So, you never award any bonus xp for completing taskings?

There is a world of difference ebtween "Uncover the spies in Hommlett" and "Uncover the spies in Hommlett and bring them alive to the Archbishop" as a meta-game goal for the players and their characters. the former is a pretty typical "adventure" hook; the latter is a victory-condition that limits player driven outcomes.

How is there any difference? Find the spy vs Find the spy and bring him in alive are both plot hooks. One's a bit more specific, but, as far as plot hooks go, they're both pretty much the same. Neither one tells you how to achieve that goal. Neither one affects the player's actions at all, other than to give them direction.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

Let's pretend XP for an encounter is (100xlevel) and a monster is (20xlevel), and this Hommlett affair is for level 5 PCs. Is there a reason this horribly restrictive quest of the Archbishop's (which is restrictive because you don't get free XP for not doing it) couldn't be written "Uncover the spies in Hommlett (500 XP) and bring them alive to the archbishop (100 XP)"? EDIT: You know, while we're pretending you write the XP reward on the quest card, which you don't.

All I'm seeing argued is "CR means you only get XP for killing monsters and surviving traps! There's no roleplaying, no goals, just hack & slash!" from a different angle. Same misconceptions about a given mechanic, same devotion to reading it in such a way that you assume the rules aren't intended to work - based on not liking the examples. Or directly ignoring portions of the relevant text, like the part on the Quests article where it suggests Quests could be player-given goals.

 

[Reynard]

How is there any difference? Find the spy vs Find the spy and bring him in alive are both plot hooks. One's a bit more specific, but, as far as plot hooks go, they're both pretty much the same. Neither one tells you how to achieve that goal. Neither one affects the player's actions at all, other than to give them direction.

See, I think it is an issue of definitions. "bring them to the Archbishop" isn't a plot hook, it is a task. Tying the XP reward for the adventure as a whole to a specific task, as oposed to a general goal, impacts player choice by enticing them in a meta-game context to take certain actions that might be neither appropriate nor "in character" just to get the meta-game reward of bonus XP.

XP is a powerful motivator, perhaps the most powerful motivator in the game. What you give, and don't give, XP for has a huge impact on how the players engage the game. If you only give XP for slain foes, for example, you end up with lost of slit throats and running down goblins like dogs. if you give XP for anything that aounts to overcoming a challenge, you get a lot more variable play. if you give XP for purposefully avoiding certain kinds of challenges, it broadens even more (ex: sneaking around the goblin patrol versus engaging it). The same is true for treasure, traps, NPC interactions, goal and task completion and so on. Thus, the rules of the game, the mechanics for rewarding XP, promote a certain playstyle. One of the things about 4E that bothers me in general -- above and beyond the silly and unneccessary core flavor changes -- is that the intent in many of the rules changes is to enforce a very particular playstyle. The nice thing about editions 1 through 3 is that it is perfectly viable to run everything from hack and slash dungeon crawling to political machinations to horror to epic high fantasy questing. The available options for creating adventures and encounters were broad and deep -- for example, the presence of physically weak, magically powerful seductive fey in the woods that existed without a battle-form -- and while I am sure that after 4E starts to pile on the supplements it too will build up a varied base of options, the core materials appear to be entirely too specific and intended toward a singular playstyle for my tastes.

 

[Hussar]

See, I think it is an issue of definitions. "bring them to the Archbishop" isn't a plot hook, it is a task.

I agree it's an issue of definitions.

How is "Bring them to the Archbishop" not a plot hook but, "Find the spies" is? They're both plot hooks.

Put it another way.

If the town puts up wanted posters for a bad guy and puts a reward on the wanted poster, is that a plot hook or a task? What's the difference? And, if the players do bring in the bad guy, do you give any xp over and above the combat xp for defeating the bad guy?

 

[Reynard]

If the town puts up wanted posters for a bad guy and puts a reward on the wanted poster, is that a plot hook or a task? What's the difference?

The wanted poster is a plo hook. the PCs wander into town, heading for the nearest tavern as they are wont to do, and they see the sign. The players say, "hey look, a plot hook!" and they decide whether or not they'll bite. The task comes in when they do some talking, find out that the Archbishop is the one with the concern over the spies, and they go to him and he offers them a specific reward (100 gp and this shiny sword) for a specific task (bring them to me, alive). That is an in-game task and reward and it works just fine. When dealing with the spies, making a decision about whether or not to complete that task has only in-game consequences: no 100 gp or shiny sword if they decide to kill them all, or join them, or sell them out to someone else or whatever. There's no meta game XP rward gained or lost, because what the players decide to do, how they want to run their characters in the context of the scenario as presented, is the determinate of XP gain.

And, if the players do bring in the bad guy, do you give any xp over and above the combat xp for defeating the bad guy?

If so inclined, I might tack a "story award" on to the entire situation (it depends on the type of campaign and what sort of play I am trying to promote). However, I would not apply different story awards for bringing them in alive or destroying the cell in its entirety or joining up with them. Telling the players what to do and how to engage the scenario is not my job.