One of my players is looking at the Steamsuit Pilot Paragon Path for 4e. Something he asked me about was why the pp had so many drawbacks. For example, most if not all of the powers had a down side (weakened, immobilized, defenseless) for using them and even being hit while in the suit can be a huge problem. I told him I didn't want to tinker with it much so I thought I'd ask what your design intentions were behind it so I can get a better idea.
Design Philosophy behind Steamsuit Pilot PP
- Thread starter Bruize
- Start date
RangerWickett
Legend
Each power of the steamsuit is stronger than an average one, balanced by the chance using it might leave you in a bad position. It's meant to represent that the technology is strong, but not quite polished and figured out.
I'm sitting in a parking lot stealing someone's wifi, so I don't have the full text handy, but my recollection is that all the attack powers do more damage or hit a wider area than typical ones for paragon paths.
I'm sitting in a parking lot stealing someone's wifi, so I don't have the full text handy, but my recollection is that all the attack powers do more damage or hit a wider area than typical ones for paragon paths.
I'm actually the one who asked about it and came across this trying to check again if it's been discussed already. I'm still uncertain how I feel about the effects although I'm mostly ok with the daily power as is now that I've just discarded the idea of ever using an action to try to make a save to end its effects. I love the flavor of the paragon path and will most likely take it just for that, and the negative effects of the powers definitely add to the flavor; but there are some concerns I had pop up in my mind when looking them over.
The first concern I had was really just specific to my build I guess. The encounter power only averages 1 more point of damage than my at-will is normally going to deal (charge cheese), and my at-will also has slide 2 and prone. So 1 more damage and 4 additional slide isn't worth an uncertain amount of time with weakened for me, but there are definitely other paragon path encounter powers that just don't work well for me, which I guess is why they have the feat Reserve Maneuver.
My other, more legitimate, concern is with the 'save ends' aspect of the powers in and of themselves, although flavor-wise I see how this represents the unstable nature of the technology, the impact just seems too random. I tend to hold on to save end effects for multiple rounds, so this makes me extremely leery. Also, the first save will occur on the very round the player uses the encounter powers since the effect is applied before their turn is over and you save at the end of your turn. So they may never even feel the effects at all. I would think ends at the end of next turn would be a better and more measured hindrance for the encounter powers. That way they're guaranteed to feel the consequences to some degree, but not get stuck with it for long. Or to give it more of the unstable, finicky gadget aspect maybe something like this for the attack encounter power, "Effect: You are weakened until the end of your next turn. Aftereffect: You have a -2 penalty to damage rolls (save ends)." And for the utility, "Effect: You move twice your speed and gain +5 bonus to all Acrobatics or Athletics checks during this movement. You are immobilized until the end of your next turn. Aftereffect: You are slowed (save ends)." The character is able to get the suit up and running fairly quickly, but it may be a bit before it is functioning optimally again.
The daily is great as is as long as you're careful with it, but again I don't really like the effect very much. The only way I can see using it is to have resist gear and keep the aura up all fight, and to only use the attack if you think you're going to finish off the BBEG, or your suit has already been disabled by failing saves from taking damage. It doesn't quite match the flavor text either. My unasked for suggestion for that one would be, "Effect: Each creature adjacent to the target takes 10 fire and force damage; you are restrained until the end of your next turn. Aftereffect: Your suit is disabled (i.e., you are slowed, grant combat advantage, and take a -2 penalty to attack rolls). You can make a saving throw as a move action; if you succeed, the suit reactivates." The standard action requirement just seemed way too harsh here. Especially when you might have to sacrifice that action more than once.
The first concern I had was really just specific to my build I guess. The encounter power only averages 1 more point of damage than my at-will is normally going to deal (charge cheese), and my at-will also has slide 2 and prone. So 1 more damage and 4 additional slide isn't worth an uncertain amount of time with weakened for me, but there are definitely other paragon path encounter powers that just don't work well for me, which I guess is why they have the feat Reserve Maneuver.
My other, more legitimate, concern is with the 'save ends' aspect of the powers in and of themselves, although flavor-wise I see how this represents the unstable nature of the technology, the impact just seems too random. I tend to hold on to save end effects for multiple rounds, so this makes me extremely leery. Also, the first save will occur on the very round the player uses the encounter powers since the effect is applied before their turn is over and you save at the end of your turn. So they may never even feel the effects at all. I would think ends at the end of next turn would be a better and more measured hindrance for the encounter powers. That way they're guaranteed to feel the consequences to some degree, but not get stuck with it for long. Or to give it more of the unstable, finicky gadget aspect maybe something like this for the attack encounter power, "Effect: You are weakened until the end of your next turn. Aftereffect: You have a -2 penalty to damage rolls (save ends)." And for the utility, "Effect: You move twice your speed and gain +5 bonus to all Acrobatics or Athletics checks during this movement. You are immobilized until the end of your next turn. Aftereffect: You are slowed (save ends)." The character is able to get the suit up and running fairly quickly, but it may be a bit before it is functioning optimally again.
The daily is great as is as long as you're careful with it, but again I don't really like the effect very much. The only way I can see using it is to have resist gear and keep the aura up all fight, and to only use the attack if you think you're going to finish off the BBEG, or your suit has already been disabled by failing saves from taking damage. It doesn't quite match the flavor text either. My unasked for suggestion for that one would be, "Effect: Each creature adjacent to the target takes 10 fire and force damage; you are restrained until the end of your next turn. Aftereffect: Your suit is disabled (i.e., you are slowed, grant combat advantage, and take a -2 penalty to attack rolls). You can make a saving throw as a move action; if you succeed, the suit reactivates." The standard action requirement just seemed way too harsh here. Especially when you might have to sacrifice that action more than once.
eamon
Explorer
Note that save-boosting things like Resilient Focus (+2) and a ring of protection (+1) will help you with the suit's downsides. Also, most of these save-ends things are actions you take on *your* turn, which means you might save the very same turn before you've every experienced a downside.
Finally, in Epic you might consider Martial Resolve, which allows for a save at the start of your turn (like a Warden, which I presume you are not), giving you yet another chance to avoid the effect.
All in all, I think the downsides are managable, and in fact likely to be less bad than a until-the-end-of-your-next-turn effect.
However, I also think the PP power's aren't strong enough to really warrant a downside. It's a bit of a strikerish PP, and it has a fairly easily obtainable prereq, so it's comparable, say, to the Thuranni Shadow Warrior. That one has an encounter single target attack that probably does more damage (two-strike weapon vs. NAD doing 1[W]+Dex and an effect each), and few good other powers and a decent features.
Basically, the steamsuits strength aren't really the powers; those aren't that special. You're going to do it for the suit itself - the AC is quite decent, and it's easily accessible to classes with poor defenses - it could be a really large bonus for some. Also, it's not that easy to become large, and being large can enable cool things like one-handed reach weapons (e.g. a greatspear + shield is a +3 proficiency bonus reach weapon with great feat support).
However, taking damage just 3 times is a very low bar to reach. Aura's, ongoing damage, auto-hit stuff, attacks vs. NADs, multiattacks... There are lots of scenarios where the suit can become damaged very, very quickly.
Finally, in Epic you might consider Martial Resolve, which allows for a save at the start of your turn (like a Warden, which I presume you are not), giving you yet another chance to avoid the effect.
All in all, I think the downsides are managable, and in fact likely to be less bad than a until-the-end-of-your-next-turn effect.
However, I also think the PP power's aren't strong enough to really warrant a downside. It's a bit of a strikerish PP, and it has a fairly easily obtainable prereq, so it's comparable, say, to the Thuranni Shadow Warrior. That one has an encounter single target attack that probably does more damage (two-strike weapon vs. NAD doing 1[W]+Dex and an effect each), and few good other powers and a decent features.
Basically, the steamsuits strength aren't really the powers; those aren't that special. You're going to do it for the suit itself - the AC is quite decent, and it's easily accessible to classes with poor defenses - it could be a really large bonus for some. Also, it's not that easy to become large, and being large can enable cool things like one-handed reach weapons (e.g. a greatspear + shield is a +3 proficiency bonus reach weapon with great feat support).
However, taking damage just 3 times is a very low bar to reach. Aura's, ongoing damage, auto-hit stuff, attacks vs. NADs, multiattacks... There are lots of scenarios where the suit can become damaged very, very quickly.
Last edited:
RangerWickett
Legend
It probably should have been something that requires substantial damage, like "Each time an attack hits it and deals damage equal to or greater than your level, make a save...."
I was secretly hoping nobody would mention that, but your suggestion is a really good one. Not only does the higher ac make it harder for minions to hit, but when they do, it isn' quite so problematic. I'll have to look into it.
hirou
Explorer
Can we actually hope to have "Extended Player's Guide ver. 1.1" at some point of time? Or maybe just a collection of such suggestions from developers of this campaign, maybe in the errata wiki section.
skotothalamos
formerly roadtoad
An early draft said something like "make a saving throw after using this power. If you fail, you are <condition> for X turns," so the initial design was for you to only sometimes be affected. Making it "save ends" keeps that functionality while adding in all the things in the game that normally work with saving throws, like an assist from a friend, or some classes and races getting bonus saving throws.
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