Detect magic + Spellcraft = aggravation?

[arscott]

Spellcraft
20 + spell level
Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.

With detect magic, you can see and detect, no?

It explicitly says "see or detect the effects of the spell". Detect magic allows you to detect the spell, but unless you can see what the spell is doing, you're not detecting it's effects.

 

[Glyfair]

It explicitly says "see or detect the effects of the spell". Detect magic allows you to detect the spell, but unless you can see what the spell is doing, you're not detecting it's effects.

Exactly. Spellcraft is fine when you can see the effects. Detect Magic doesn't have any special ability to let you see "effects."

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Ummm, no, it has never caused any problems. If the PCs use it then it means that the players are thinking, and this is supposed to be a bad thing? It is just another way for me to get information to the players.

The Auld Grump

 

[Caliban]

Exactly. Spellcraft is fine when you can see the effects. Detect Magic doesn't have any special ability to let you see "effects."

Well, it sure reads that way to me. That's kind of the purpose of the spell.

 

[Glyfair]

Well, it sure reads that way to me. That's kind of the purpose of the spell.

I supposed it depends on your definition of "effects" (it's not clearly defined in the PHB). Detect Magic detects "magical auras." Is a magical aura an effect?

IMO, it's not. Effects are things like the heat from a fireball, the green ray from the disintegrate spell, the stone wall from wall of stone, or maybe even the odd way Sir George is cowtowing to that wizard (the one who cast Charm Person on him).

Nothing in Detect Magic says it allows you to figure out the exact spell. Given that it specifically mentions a spellcraft roll to determine the school of magic, you'd think it would go the extra step and mention that it could help you determine the specific spell, if the intent was that it would.

 

[Caliban]

I supposed it depends on your definition of "effects" (it's not clearly defined in the PHB). Detect Magic detects "magical auras." Is a magical aura an effect?

IMO, it's not.

In my opinion, the magical aura of an active spell is an effect of that spell. Otherwise it's nearly impossible to determine what a spell with a non-visible effect is if you weren't there to see it cast.

 

[Glyfair]

In my opinion, the magical aura of an active spell is an effect of that spell. Otherwise it's nearly impossible to determine what a spell with a non-visible effect is if you weren't there to see it cast.

I don't have a problem with that. I don't think every spell has to be identifiable that way.

However, I will say I think that number of spells is pretty small. Mage Armor, it's invisible, but when someone attacks a character will Mage Armor, you do see the "effect." When someone is charmed, their behavior around the caster is the "effect." The average person might not recognize that the person is charmed, but a wizard with enough knowledge of spells might notice.

 

[Quasqueton]

I said I’d get back to this thread, and I forgot until just now.

Could you please elaborate on why PC's knowing the school of magic of a particular aura is causing headaches for you?

I’m going to make up some scenarios similar to, but completely different from real ones I’ve dealt with because I don’t want everyone to get wrapped up in telling me how I did something wrong in a specific instance. I’m more interested in the general, here.

For instances:

The party meets with an NPC mage, and the party wizard has detect magic up to give the mage a good look over. Now, instead of concentrating on the verbal exchange and role playing, I have to figure out and tell the party wizard all the buff spells the mage has up.

The party is examining the evil alter in the evil temple, contemplating stealing the jeweled statuary. Unknown to them, touching the alter without saying the “password” opens a secret door, letting in a beasty to attack the thieves. But the bard casts detect magic – what and where does he see auras? An abjuration on the alter? What about the secret door? What spells are the magic effects? [Think of almost every published D&D module – there’s always something like this that has no straight-out-of-the-book spell or explanation. Heck, the Tomb of Horrors (currently in discussion on this forum) is full of such things.]

One party member has picked up a magic item, unknown to the rest of the group (and he might not even know it is magical). When the party mage uses detect magic to look in an area where the other PC just happens to be standing, does he see the “new” item on the other PC? Does he recognize it as something new (after all, most PCs have a few magic items on them all the time)?
“Hey, where did you get that moderate abjuration aura?”
“What? What aura?”
“That moderate abjuration aura, right behind that faint illusion aura, and beside the strong evocation aura. No, the other one. Right under the moderate evocation aura.”
“Have you been keeping track of my magic items?”

A door that will only open to someone speaking the password. What aura, what strength, what spell?

A tiled floor that zaps trespassers who don’t walk in a certain pattern. What aura, what strength, what spell?

A fresco showing a raging battle, from which a warrior will jump out of when the door to the room closes. What aura, what strength, what spell (and where – the door, the wall, the floor the PCs is standing on?)?

[The last three come from classic adventure modules.]

It’s good when the PCs/Players think well enough to use detect magic, but it’s seeming, to me, that it is getting so much use that I spend an inordinate amount of time telling the spellcasters about magic auras. A sorcerer can use it 4-7 times a day. It used to be (in previous editions) that detect magic was used only when the party really suspected a trap or trick, or actually more likely, to detect magic items in the treasure pile. Now it gets used so often that little magical effects that I never really considered worthy of jotting down aura info in my adventure notes (like a password door) suddenly require me to put attention in them.

Ironically, in a previous campaign, the party wizard used detect magic regularly (I think it was his only ever prepared 0-level spell) from the start of the campaign to level 6. Then I made a dungeon that had many magical effects, and most were little clues to things going on in the dungeon. I made detailed notes on the auras the PC wizard would find, knowing he’d use detect magic just as he had been doing all along. The son of a gun didn’t use detect magic a single time in the whole dungeon. Not a single, damn, time.

And for the record, as I said above, detect magic is not ruining my game. It’s not a constant headache. It’s just sometimes annoying. I’m surprised that I’m the only one to have this problem. <shrug> Oh well.

Quasqueton

 

[Lanefan]

By "return," Frank implies that the spell ever just gave you magic or not-magic. That's not the case; even in 1e and 2e, it had a 5% chance per level of giving you the school of the magical aura being examined.

Which is fine if you bother with magic schools (I don't). What the spell *did* also give you in 1e was a relative strength of magic on a 6-point scale, something like "faint, weak, moderate, strong, very strong, extreme". (what I did later was change the Cleric version to a simple yes-no for magic; you needed a Wizard to get strength of aura)

Lanefan

 

[Pbartender]

Let's take a look at the spell first, Q, and then I'm going to go over those exampels you presented...

Okay. The first thing you need to remember is that detect magic is a spell that requires concentration and time in order to all the most useful information out of it.

Don't forget that the character using the spell has to study an area or subject continuously to get the benefits from subsequent rounds. As soon as the character puts attention on something else, he'll have to start over. Also, concentrating to keep the spell working is a Standard Action... The character using detect magic cannot attack, cast a spell, activate a magic item, run or double move while he is using it.

Under many circumstances, the spellcaster won't make it past that first round. Otherwise, if they've got the time to wait that long to figure out all the info from detect magic, then there's enough time to figure out what they find or make it up on the spot.

1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras.
2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + half caster level for a nonspell effect.)

On to the examples...

The party meets with an NPC mage, and the party wizard has detect magic up to give the mage a good look over. Now, instead of concentrating on the verbal exchange and role playing, I have to figure out and tell the party wizard all the buff spells the mage has up.

"You detect the presence of magic. Before you can focus in, the mage looks at you in a rather irritated manner and asks, "Why are you staring at me like that?" [Roll a SPellcraft check] "Dismiss your spell immediately or our business ends now."

Regardless, a Wizard (for example) who isn't specifically expecting combat isn't likely to be buffed up. At the most, they might have mage armor, protection from arrows, darkvision and perhaps endure elements floating about. They are some of the only low-level spells that have duration greater than 10 min./level. You can cast them and they last for hours. They are all under 3rd level, so they all detect as faint auras, and they are almost all abjurations. When in doubt, any spellcaster without magic items will detect as "Faint abjuration, [less than 3] auras." Magic items are easy, since the strength and type of aura is listed in its description, and are usually fairly straightforward.

Also remember that any Party Members (who are typically loaded with magic auras) will confuse the matter, unless the caster spend all 3 rounds concentrating on a particular area.

The party is examining the evil alter in the evil temple, contemplating stealing the jeweled statuary. Unknown to them, touching the alter without saying the “password” opens a secret door, letting in a beasty to attack the thieves. But the bard casts detect magic – what and where does he see auras? An abjuration on the alter? What about the secret door? What spells are the magic effects? [Think of almost every published D&D module – there’s always something like this that has no straight-out-of-the-book spell or explanation. Heck, the Tomb of Horrors (currently in discussion on this forum) is full of such things.]

What spells do the same thing? You're activating a trigger that opens a door magically. Except for the contigency of touching the alter, the 0-level spell open/close does the same thing. Knock is a more powerful 2nd-level version of it. Both are transmutations. Both are faint auras. Put the aura on the later, since that's the trigger. One spellcraft check to ID the aura, if successful another check to determine that the spell is a trigger to activate an effect, if successful a third check to determine that the effect will be aimed at the secret door.

One party member has picked up a magic item, unknown to the rest of the group (and he might not even know it is magical). When the party mage uses detect magic to look in an area where the other PC just happens to be standing, does he see the “new” item on the other PC? Does he recognize it as something new (after all, most PCs have a few magic items on them all the time)?
“Hey, where did you get that moderate abjuration aura?”
“What? What aura?”
“That moderate abjuration aura, right behind that faint illusion aura, and beside the strong evocation aura. No, the other one. Right under the moderate evocation aura.”
“Have you been keeping track of my magic items?”

Yup... Cue minor inter-party roleplaying conflict.

A door that will only open to someone speaking the password. What aura, what strength, what spell?

That's an arcane lock with a password. Regardless, it's a magical effect that's certainly an abjuration (you're protecting a door) that isn't higher than 3rd level... Faint abjuration.

A tiled floor that zaps trespassers who don’t walk in a certain pattern. What aura, what strength, what spell?

Trigger doesn't matter. Effect does. Sounds like a shocking grasp or lightning bolt to me... Faint evocation.

A fresco showing a raging battle, from which a warrior will jump out of when the door to the room closes. What aura, what strength, what spell (and where – the door, the wall, the floor the PCs is standing on?)?

The aura is on the door (that's what triggers the magical trap). You are summoning a warrior, the fresco stuff is just flavor text. Conjuration strength dependent on the CR of the warrior being summoned (as compared to the summon monster spells).